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Why dont 'Common sense campaigners' protest against politically correct militarism? Watch

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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    Well they wouldn't gain enough votes to be in the government because as you said before the other parties oppose them. They may well get seats in parliament but they would never become the government. The taliban want an islamic state,
    So do the Islamic Party of Afghanistan, the Islamic movement of Afghanistan and the United Islamic party of Afghanistan, which are all represented in Government, the only difference between them and the Taliban is that they are not fighting the west and you know why?? Because we aren't attacking them Until very recently as you saw in the article i quoted, we wouldn't even agree to speak with the Taliban we just killed killed killed, it's only now that public opinion is turning against the war on top of the colossal costs that we have decided to grant them an audience.You cannot expect the Afghan people to adhere strictly to our democratic principles, we have marched in and changed thousands of years worth of society with a click of our fingers, they should be allowed ot vote for whoever they want, no matter what kind of state they propose, to deny them this makes us as bad as the those we attack.





    But you said the taliban should no longer be fought didn't you?
    I said the Taliban should no longer be fought by us, If they were allowed into government and they did partake in intimidation or threats. The Afghan government should take the initiative. I mean, apart from fast air cover we do not have much influence on the ground, neither did the soviets and they had 80,000 troops patrolling. I can garuntee the Afghan army can do a better job than us, they will posess the same tribal skills as their taliban countrymen as well as all the modern equipment we have provided.



    You can't incorporate them into government because they don't have enough votes and the other parties don't like them. All you can do is allow them to stand for election, will they ever be satisfied with that? Human rights come before democracy as far as I am concerned.

    I am not sure where you get your sources from, but the Taliban have alot in common with a few of the other Islamic parties who are represented. And still recieve quite a bit of support from the more hardline groups.

    Human rights before democracy?? So what you are proposing is a totalitarian regime where everyone is treated equally but has absolutely no say in how or who they are ruled by?:eek:
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    (Original post by Renner)
    Every poll I have seen shows’ the Afghans want the coalition to leave, however every poll I have seen also says they don’t want the Taliban to return. In which case we must stay the course until the national government is capable of fighting the Taliban themselves.
    Well.. lets look at this logically. If the Afghans want the coalition to leave, they should leave, otherwise we are just as bad as the taliban.

    If the Afghans do not want the Taliban to return... then why do they need us there. The Afghan people are not as soft and defenceless as we british are, most own their own weapons and i think that if the majority of the people did not want a foreign minority party like the Taliban to return to power they would force them not to. I think you severely overestimate the Taliban and severely underestimate your average Afghan.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Well.. lets look at this logically. If the Afghans want the coalition to leave, they should leave, otherwise we are just as bad as the taliban.

    If the Afghans do not want the Taliban to return... then why do they need us there. The Afghan people are not as soft and defenceless as we british are, most own their own weapons and i think that if the majority of the people did not want a foreign minority party like the Taliban to return to power they would force them not to. I think you severely overestimate the Taliban and severely underestimate your average Afghan.
    Is this the same average Afghan that was terrorised by the Taliban for many years? The same average afghan which failed to stop the Taliban from executing school teachers simply because they taught girls, or killing all the girls who went to school? We are not as bad as a Taliban by any stretch of the imagination and if we were to leave now they would return and the national government would collapse
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    (Original post by Renner)
    Is this the same average Afghan that was terrorised by the Taliban for many years? The same average afghan which failed to stop the Taliban from executing school teachers simply because they taught girls, or killing all the girls who went to school? We are not as bad as a Taliban by any stretch of the imagination and if we were to leave now they would return and the national government would collapse
    You fail to understand the past and current situation in Afghannistan.

    You speak as if when we leave they are going to just stroll back into Kabul and pick up where they left off. The Afghan people dont want the Taleban there anymore. This is a completely different situation to what it was in the 90's when the Taleban took control of a country that was split into countless warring factions, of which the Taliban was the largest and most powerful, compare that to the Taliban now, they are a minority among the tribes made up mostly of mostly foreign fighters, with tired old equipment. For the most part the Afghan people are now united against the Taleban, they have their own army and police force, and to be honest the amount of individuals who own a gun would amount to a national militia that numbers in the miliions. So i ask you again, what makes you thinkk they will take back power so easily?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    So do the Islamic Party of Afghanistan, the Islamic movement of Afghanistan and the United Islamic party of Afghanistan, which are all represented in Government, the only difference between them and the Taliban is that they are not fighting the west and you know why?? Because we aren't attacking them Until very recently as you saw in the article i quoted, we wouldn't even agree to speak with the Taliban we just killed killed killed, it's only now that public opinion is turning against the war on top of the colossal costs that we have decided to grant them an audience.You cannot expect the Afghan people to adhere strictly to our democratic principles, we have marched in and changed thousands of years worth of society with a click of our fingers, they should be allowed ot vote for whoever they want, no matter what kind of state they propose, to deny them this makes us as bad as the those we attack.
    No there is a big difference those parties are not armed and attempting to attack afghans and the coalition they aren't violent. Besides simply put the taliban started it, they refused to hand over the people responsible for 9/11. In the history of all insurgencies both sides say no negotiations, then fight for a while, then come to a compromise deal with the insurgents disarming and being recognised as legitimate. We haven't changed thousands of years of society, you said yourself that they had a fairly liberal democracy in the 70s. There always needs to be protection for minorities that cannot be taken away by the majority don't you agree?

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I said the Taliban should no longer be fought by us, If they were allowed into government and they did partake in intimidation or threats. The Afghan government should take the initiative. I mean, apart from fast air cover we do not have much influence on the ground, neither did the soviets and they had 80,000 troops patrolling. I can garuntee the Afghan army can do a better job than us, they will posess the same tribal skills as their taliban countrymen as well as all the modern equipment we have provided.
    The afghan government is taking the initiative it has 80,000 troops but as you say the soviets had 80,000 so if we do not help they will suffer the same fate as the soviets. If this afghan army can do the job better than us why is it not doing so now?

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I am not sure where you get your sources from, but the Taliban have alot in common with a few of the other Islamic parties who are represented. And still recieve quite a bit of support from the more hardline groups.
    How powerful are those other islamic groups though? Also how many people would support the taliban but not those parties? Its more likely some voters will switch from the other islamist parties to the taliban I doubt others will vote for them. Anyway ive just found out that the taliban are boycotting the next elections so it doesn't really matter.

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Human rights before democracy?? So what you are proposing is a totalitarian regime where everyone is treated equally but has absolutely no say in how or who they are ruled by?:eek:
    An unchangeable guarantee of rights is what I advocate. Hardly totalitarian.
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    (Original post by Renner)
    Every poll I have seen shows’ the Afghans want the coalition to leave, however every poll I have seen also says they don’t want the Taliban to return. In which case we must stay the course until the national government is capable of fighting the Taliban themselves.
    What polls are these? Ive only seen a couple but they were pro coalition.
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    . Hardly totalitarian.
    Ok we clearly have differeing views on the subject but i would be interested to know what you think of these articles?


    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...n_Afghanistan/
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    Heres a tip for you: Don't stand in front of trains.

    No the soldiers were not defending their nation or people they defended mullah omar and saddam hussein.
    Casualties:
    In the 80s saddam killed 1,000,000 in the iran-iraq war of aggression.
    In the 90s saddam killed 100,000 in the 1st gulf war and 150,000 in the al-anfal campaign.
    Plus over the course of saddams rule an estimated 200,000 people have been disappeared.
    Violent deaths after the invasion are around 100,000
    Seems probable that saddam and his heirs would have killed many more than 100,000 in the future doesn't it?

    Obama buried the pictures because there could be no advantage to releasing them except a propoganda victory for the enemy.

    The afghans support the presence of foreign troops that is undeniable.

    Heres a tip for you; on a railway line that operates trains at 125MPH you will be very suprised at how quickly and silently they come. Your ignorance to the threat railway workers experience is laughable.

    Actually if your nation is invaded you are expected to fight whether or not you agree with the government.

    Its interesting how you mention the Iran-Iraq war without also mentioning the west supported Saddam hussein in attacking Iran. That includes Britain and America, the same allied forces you claim are a force for good.

    Starting a war against a nation causes instability. If the gulf war never happened perhaps those deaths wouldn't have happened.

    Although i completely disagree with Saddam Hussein, i really don;t like this man. I consider the war against Iraq a crime.

    I would also like to point out over a million people have died due to the invasion of Iraq including the massacre of Fallujah where American troops completely closed of Fallujah from repoerters and the red cross/crescent and went on a killing spree. You need to read some testimonies of what happened in Fallujah, Hitler would be proud.

    Also i would like to point out the sanctions the West put on Iraq before the second Iraq war resulted in 500,000 Iraqi child fatalities.

    Who is really evil?

    Obama is a liar he promised to release all images of abuse by American troops before he got elected and then changed his mind. The reality is no one will know what really happened without those pictures and America is covering up their war crimes.

    Its very deniable that Afghans support foreign troops. Many Afghans think their new government is a joke.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Ok we clearly have differeing views on the subject but i would be interested to know what you think of these articles?


    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...n_Afghanistan/
    The aims of the man in that article are different to mine. He only wants to stop the threat to the UK he doesn't give a toss what happens to the afghans, he openly says we should stop pressing for womens rights. He is one of those people who doesn't care what happens outside our borders so long as we aren't threatened.
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    The aims of the man in that article are different to mine. He only wants to stop the threat to the UK he doesn't give a toss what happens to the afghans, he openly says we should stop pressing for womens rights. He is one of those people who doesn't care what happens outside our borders so long as we aren't threatened.

    But he is the kind of person who supports the reason why we went to Afghanistan, to destroy the Taliban. If this is truly about the people of Afghanistan (who arent our responsibility) Then why didn't we do something about it in the 90's at the height of their abuse? That is why i question the Governments real aims.
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    (Original post by TheJudge)
    Heres a tip for you; on a railway line that operates trains at 125MPH you will be very suprised at how quickly and silently they come. Your ignorance to the threat railway workers experience is laughable.

    Actually if your nation is invaded you are expected to fight whether or not you agree with the government.

    Its interesting how you mention the Iran-Iraq war without also mentioning the west supported Saddam hussein in attacking Iran. That includes Britain and America, the same allied forces you claim are a force for good.

    Starting a war against a nation causes instability. If the gulf war never happened perhaps those deaths wouldn't have happened.

    Although i completely disagree with Saddam Hussein, i really don;t like this man. I consider the war against Iraq a crime.

    I would also like to point out over a million people have died due to the invasion of Iraq including the massacre of Fallujah where American troops completely closed of Fallujah from repoerters and the red cross/crescent and went on a killing spree. You need to read some testimonies of what happened in Fallujah, Hitler would be proud.

    Also i would like to point out the sanctions the West put on Iraq before the second Iraq war resulted in 500,000 Iraqi child fatalities.

    Who is really evil?

    Obama is a liar he promised to release all images of abuse by American troops before he got elected and then changed his mind. The reality is no one will know what really happened without those pictures and America is covering up their war crimes.

    Its very deniable that Afghans support foreign troops. Many Afghans think their new government is a joke.
    Link to one single news story about someone dying while working on the railway in the past 10 years please.

    Expected to fight by who? By saddam? Personally id have to let him down on that one.

    Whats your point? Saddam still started the iran-iraq war and the whole thing is still his fault.

    Saddam started the gulf war so he is responsible for those deaths.

    Why is a war to get rid of saddam and set up a secular democracy a crime?

    The iraq body count website says a little over 100,000 not a million, hell even the most extreme figures put about by extremists only say 600,000.

    You are the evil one along with anyone else who believes we should have sat and watched while saddam continued to torture and kill his people on a massive scale. What would your solution have been to saddam? leave him alone and hope he becomes a reformed character?

    Yeah you keep thinking that the afghans oppose our troops, all the press and the polls that say the afghans support our presence are just a big conspiracy right?:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But he is the kind of person who supports the reason why we went to Afghanistan, to destroy the Taliban. If this is truly about the people of Afghanistan (who arent our responsibility) Then why didn't we do something about it in the 90's at the height of their abuse? That is why i question the Governments real aims.
    You are right we should have done something much earlier but as we are there now its better late than never. I do think we have some responsibility to the people of afghanistan given our past involvement there. Plus I think we should intervene in every country when people are being badly abused, obviously thats not possible but when the govt does i'll support them. Also its worth pointing out that the govt can never come out and say they are going into another country to change the regime as its illegal. Don't get me wrong the government probably aren't that bothered about the afghans sometimes but I prefer to judge by effects than aims and things are better now than before and are improving.
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    You are right we should have done something much earlier but as we are there now its better late than never. I do think we have some responsibility to the people of afghanistan given our past involvement there. Plus I think we should intervene in every country when people are being badly abused, obviously thats not possible but when the govt does i'll support them. Also its worth pointing out that the govt can never come out and say they are going into another country to change the regime as its illegal. Don't get me wrong the government probably aren't that bothered about the afghans sometimes but I prefer to judge by effects than aims and things are better now than before and are improving.


    Well... that kind of foreign policy is illogical even in the smallest sense. We would bankrupt ourselves.

    If you read the spectator link in article, it would reveal we have done nothing for the infrastructure of Afghanistan and are alienating the population who are fed up with undelivered promises. We told them that we would rebuild their country while we are fighting the Taliban. We have done nothing of the sort. All we have done is install a pro-west Government. What is all this good you are reffering to.
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    Link to one single news story about someone dying while working on the railway in the past 10 years please.

    Expected to fight by who? By saddam? Personally id have to let him down on that one.

    Whats your point? Saddam still started the iran-iraq war and the whole thing is still his fault.

    Saddam started the gulf war so he is responsible for those deaths.

    Why is a war to get rid of saddam and set up a secular democracy a crime?

    The iraq body count website says a little over 100,000 not a million, hell even the most extreme figures put about by extremists only say 600,000.

    You are the evil one along with anyone else who believes we should have sat and watched while saddam continued to torture and kill his people on a massive scale. What would your solution have been to saddam? leave him alone and hope he becomes a reformed character?

    Yeah you keep thinking that the afghans oppose our troops, all the press and the polls that say the afghans support our presence are just a big conspiracy right?:rolleyes:

    http://www.irwinmitchell.com/PressOf...rker-death.htm

    Crushed by a machine, the sort of machiens we work around all the time.

    You don;t have a choice to fight or not you moron.

    Actually you will find Saddam was advised to attack Iran adn steal their oil fields. He was the wests little mid east pitbull.

    Revolution comes from within not for a foreign nation setting up puppet governments and giant military bases.

    The Iraq body count website is the most extremist website, they are a right wing organisation designed to do damage control on the Iraq war there is a lot of controvery about the ridiculously low death count they have tallied. The lancet studies estimates the deaths at 600,000 as of 2006. How is the Lancet study extremist? Are you insane?

    Lets kepp in mind the front page of Iraq Body Count shows an American bomber dropping bombs and the quote ''we don;t do body counts''. Could they be any more obvious. This is an evil organisation.

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/


    Opinion Research Business survey estimated the deaths as just over 1 million as of 2007.


    I would have suggested America and Britian not to install Saddam Hussein in the first place. Not to arm him and not to support him in the murder of 1 million Iranians. Thats just me though.


    You are right the Afghans support our troops and thats why they are facing no resistance. Foreign soldiers would have no chance without local support.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Well... that kind of foreign policy is illogical even in the smallest sense. We would bankrupt ourselves.

    If you read the spectator link in article, it would reveal we have done nothing for the infrastructure of Afghanistan and are alienating the population who are fed up with undelivered promises. We told them that we would rebuild their country while we are fighting the Taliban. We have done nothing of the sort. All we have done is install a pro-west Government. What is all this good you are reffering to.
    I know it isn't workable all the time but still its nice when it does happen.

    I missed the link.. Anyway ive read it now and it doesn't say what reconstruction should be done or even give details of what has been done. It says we should bring the taliban into the government yet doesn't say how. Also it suggests maintaining a small force their in the very long term to keep the taliban down in case they use violence, now that would cause eternal war. The article says goodwill is being lost yet there is no poll so im sceptical.
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    (Original post by TheJudge)
    You are right the Afghans support our troops and thats why they are facing no resistance. Foreign soldiers would have no chance without local support.
    Hardly, if this was all out war they wouldnt stand a chance.
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    (Original post by TheJudge)
    http://www.irwinmitchell.com/PressOf...rker-death.htm

    Crushed by a machine, the sort of machiens we work around all the time.

    You don;t have a choice to fight or not you moron.

    Actually you will find Saddam was advised to attack Iran adn steal their oil fields. He was the wests little mid east pitbull.

    Revolution comes from within not for a foreign nation setting up puppet governments and giant military bases.

    The Iraq body count website is the most extremist website, they are a right wing organisation designed to do damage control on the Iraq war there is a lot of controvery about the ridiculously low death count they have tallied. The lancet studies estimates the deaths at 600,000 as of 2006. How is the Lancet study extremist? Are you insane?

    Lets kepp in mind the front page of Iraq Body Count shows an American bomber dropping bombs and the quote ''we don;t do body counts''. Could they be any more obvious. This is an evil organisation.

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/


    Opinion Research Business survey estimated the deaths as just over 1 million as of 2007.


    I would have suggested America and Britian not to install Saddam Hussein in the first place. Not to arm him and not to support him in the murder of 1 million Iranians. Thats just me though.


    You are right the Afghans support our troops and thats why they are facing no resistance. Foreign soldiers would have no chance without local support.
    Wow you actually found one! Still its of a guy being run over the same thing happens in warehouses.

    Actually the iraqis shared my opinion, hence most of them legged it as soon as they could.

    France could advise us to start a war with germany but if we did we would still be responsible.


    Iraqbodycount:
    The human cost of war must be recorded
    1.1 War is an abomination whose defining characteristic is the organised killing of humans.
    1.2 Our common humanity demands the recording of war deaths.
    1.3 Every individual killed must be identified.
    1.4 We must use every available means to record and preserve knowledge of the dead
    The project was founded in January 2003 by volunteers from the UK and USA who felt a responsibility to ensure that the human consequences of military intervention in Iraq were not neglected

    Hardly right wing stuff. The bomber and comment are their to make people angry at american callousness not there as support.

    The lancet and the other one are estimates, I can estimate 10 million or a 100 the iraq body count only includes documented deaths.

    I wouldn't suggest we support saddam or arm him but whats done is done everyone should focus on whats best for the future.
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    I know it isn't workable all the time but still its nice when it does happen.

    I missed the link.. Anyway ive read it now and it doesn't say what reconstruction should be done or even give details of what has been done. It says we should bring the taliban into the government yet doesn't say how. Also it suggests maintaining a small force their in the very long term to keep the taliban down in case they use violence, now that would cause eternal war. The article says goodwill is being lost yet there is no poll so im sceptical.

    I see your points, but the guys credentials back up what he says, i suppose we are all detatched from the war in a major way, every report we read is contradicted by another, every quote rubbished by another quote, it's hard really to know if there is any truth among the reports of the mass media and Government.

    Cheers for the rep by the way, Ill owe you some tomorrow.
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    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    I know it isn't workable all the time but still its nice when it does happen.

    I missed the link.. Anyway ive read it now and it doesn't say what reconstruction should be done or even give details of what has been done. It says we should bring the taliban into the government yet doesn't say how. Also it suggests maintaining a small force their in the very long term to keep the taliban down in case they use violence, now that would cause eternal war. The article says goodwill is being lost yet there is no poll so im sceptical.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yLMl...eature=related


    What do you think about the points bought up by chomsky in this video? Do you agree with him that we in the west are complete hypocrites in regard to the war on terror? What do you think of his condemnation of western leaders, in relation to the situation in Afghan?
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    (Original post by Renner)
    Hardly, if this was all out war they wouldnt stand a chance.
    This is all out war. What in your mind is an all out war if this is not.
 
 
 
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