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    Slightly off-topic, but here goes.

    I am a girl and having been forced by my mad man-hating English teacher to study practically exclusively feminist literature at A-level, I just really don't like feminism at all. I'm not some simpering bimbo or anything; I just don't see what's wrong with traditional roles for men and women? Or if not that, then at least simply equality? I don't hate men; in fact I get on much better with men. The music I listen to is all written by men, if I had a problem with my car I'd feel happier letting a man look at it than a woman etc.

    Women bear children; they have maternal instincts which usually means they are better at looking after kids than men - that's not to say that this is ALWAYS the case, and i don't have any problem with people where it works the other way round. I just get infuriated by women who seem to think that all women should be going out to work while men are actively encouraged to stay at home with the kids.

    Unfortunately for old Carol Ann Duffy etc. her feminist literature ended up making most of the girls in my english class revile her - feminism actually seemed more frumpy and old-fashioned than 'women being women' and 'men being men' the way it used to be.

    It's a strange world nowadays..
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    Men and women should be equal in everything, including the legal and education systems.

    Making exceptions for maternal care and paying attention to a female rape victim doesn't imply bias towards men. It simply means that not as many men get raped and take maternal leave.
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    (Original post by The_Smith_)
    Slightly off-topic, but here goes.

    I am a girl and having been forced by my mad man-hating English teacher to study practically exclusively feminist literature at A-level, I just really don't like feminism at all. I'm not some simpering bimbo or anything; I just don't see what's wrong with traditional roles for men and women? Or if not that, then at least simply equality? I don't hate men; in fact I get on much better with men. The music I listen to is all written by men, if I had a problem with my car I'd feel happier letting a man look at it than a woman etc.

    Women bear children; they have maternal instincts which usually means they are better at looking after kids than men - that's not to say that this is ALWAYS the case, and i don't have any problem with people where it works the other way round. I just get infuriated by women who seem to think that all women should be going out to work while men are actively encouraged to stay at home with the kids.

    Unfortunately for old Carol Ann Duffy etc. her feminist literature ended up making most of the girls in my english class revile her - feminism actually seemed more frumpy and old-fashioned than 'women being women' and 'men being men' the way it used to be.

    It's a strange world nowadays..
    I think it's a shame young women these days feel like this. The problem with reverting to "the way it used to be" is that "the way it used to be" constrained women who didn't want to conform to traditional gender roles. Women who might have wanted to go to university or have a career were forced into marrying young and becoming stay-at-home mothers.

    Feminism initially existed to give women the choice of what they wanted to do with their lives - it is only post-modernist feminism that contained all this man-hating stuff. Presumably you want to be able to have the choice to do whatever you want with your life? Feminism as a movement sprang up to provide this and to try to dispel the idea that the only path available to a woman was motherhood. Sure, you can still take that road. But feminism has given you the right to vote, the right to a university education... even the ability to own your own possessions, which was denied to women until the 19th century.

    What is more, not every woman has maternal instincts (as you seem to think) and women that don't probably end up feeling very guilty if they don't have the apparently "normal" urge to reproduce once they reach a certain age. This doesn't seem to be expected of men in the same way so there shouldn't be any pressure on women particularly to be a mother.

    Why would you feel happier about a man looking at your car than a woman?
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    (Original post by serrellen)
    I think it's a shame young women these days feel like this. The problem with reverting to "the way it used to be" is that "the way it used to be" constrained women who didn't want to conform to traditional gender roles. Women who might have wanted to go to university or have a career were forced into marrying young and becoming stay-at-home mothers.

    Feminism initially existed to give women the choice of what they wanted to do with their lives - it is only post-modernist feminism that contained all this man-hating stuff. Presumably you want to be able to have the choice to do whatever you want with your life? Feminism as a movement sprang up to provide this and to try to dispel the idea that the only path available to a woman was motherhood. Sure, you can still take that road. But feminism has given you the right to vote, the right to a university education... even the ability to own your own possessions, which was denied to women until the 19th century.

    What is more, not every woman has maternal instincts (as you seem to think) and women that don't probably end up feeling very guilty if they don't have the apparently "normal" urge to reproduce once they reach a certain age. This doesn't seem to be expected of men in the same way so there shouldn't be any pressure on women particularly to be a mother.

    Why would you feel happier about a man looking at your car than a woman?
    No, no I know. These are the sorts of arguments my teacher used to throw at me. I didn't say i feel that I don't want to go to uni or anything like that; of course that's not the case, I think that we should all have that right, and obviously I'm grateful for the orginal feminist movement. perhaps I shouldn't have said the 'way it used to be', because that's not entirely what i meant. I just think that generally gender stereotypes aren't such a bad thing. I don't want to be androgynous, I don't want my husband to stay at home with my kids while I go out and work; I just wouldn't feel right. I don't know why, I just think it would feel strange and somewhat unnatural for me personally. that's not to say other people aren't entitled to this if that's what they so choose, but why try and force this onto everyone? I believe the new labour minister for families or something, is trying to make this the case?

    i just don't see why feminism has to become so extreme in some cases? Perhaps it's just post-modernism feminism I hate then.. I'm talking about Angela Carter and Duffy here...

    It just seemed so very middle-aged and irrelevant when we were studying it, I felt as though I was having this ideology that men are useless and 'girl-power' and sort of, jokes about husbands being pointless etc. rammed down my throat, when personally I like men and I like women, and the two sexes have their individual pros and cons and I don't see why it has to be such a big issue?

    And i did say, 'usually' women have maternal instincts, because I think, generally, they do. I know it's not for everyone. However, the fact remains most women I know have children/end up having children at some part in their lives. And I think that that part of being a woman is a beautiful thing and somehting that should be celebrated, and men should not be twisted into some sort of enemy, some sort of represser of women because generally I don't think they are.

    And i'm not sure why I'd rather have my car looked at by a man really, I think the idea that it's more of a male job is just something that's been ingrained into me from being a child when I played with dolls and my brother played wth cars. It may not necessarily be right, but I think that's probably the case for most people and to try and change that doesn't really seem a worthy goal to me? Of course there will be expceptions and that's fine, but with the word 'mechanic' there usually follows an image of a man.
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    Or maybe I'm just being a snotty nosed teen, because feminism seems to be what is expected of young women these days, and I want to buck the trend, go against the establishment etc XD
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    (Original post by The_Smith_)
    No, no I know. These are the sorts of arguments my teacher used to throw at me. I didn't say i feel that I don't want to go to uni or anything like that; of course that's not the case, I think that we should all have that right, and obviously I'm grateful for the orginal feminist movement. perhaps I shouldn't have said the 'way it used to be', because that's not entirely what i meant. I just think that generally gender stereotypes aren't such a bad thing. I don't want to be androgynous, I don't want my husband to stay at home with my kids while I go out and work; I just wouldn't feel right. I don't know why, I just think it would feel strange and somewhat unnatural for me personally. that's not to say other people aren't entitled to this if that's what they so choose, but why try and force this onto everyone? I believe the new labour minister for families or something, is trying to make this the case?

    i just don't see why feminism has to become so extreme in some cases? Perhaps it's just post-modernism feminism I hate then.. I'm talking about Angela Carter and Duffy here...

    It just seemed so very middle-aged and irrelevant when we were studying it, I felt as though I was having this ideology that men are useless and 'girl-power' and sort of, jokes about husbands being pointless etc. rammed down my throat, when personally I like men and I like women, and the two sexes have their individual pros and cons and I don't see why it has to be such a big issue?

    And i did say, 'usually' women have maternal instincts, because I think, generally, they do. I know it's not for everyone. However, the fact remains most women I know have children/end up having children at some part in their lives. And I think that that part of being a woman is a beautiful thing and somehting that should be celebrated, and men should not be twisted into some sort of enemy, some sort of represser of women because generally I don't think they are.

    And i'm not sure why I'd rather have my car looked at by a man really, I think the idea that it's more of a male job is just something that's been ingrained into me from being a child when I played with dolls and my brother played wth cars. It may not necessarily be right, but I think that's probably the case for most people and to try and change that doesn't really seem a worthy goal to me? Of course there will be expceptions and that's fine, but with the word 'mechanic' there usually follows an image of a man.
    I think the way our outlooks differ is that you enjoy being told that because you are female, you should think and feel a certain way, and that men will think and feel a different way.

    To be quite frank, I think a lot of the differences between men and women are socially superimposed. You think of a mechanic of being male not because that is a thought innate in your mind in a biological way, but because, as you say, as a kid you played with dolls and your brother had cars. You seem to think this is rather nice, but I think it is sad. It means that we live in a world where are all blinkered by social ideas of how the different genders should behave. It also can prevent people - men and women - from achieving their potential in areas into which they are not normally expected to venture.

    If I am good at mechanics, I want to be a mechanic without people thinking "But... she's a woman...".

    If a man is good at nursing, he shouldn't be sniggered at because nursing is a girly profession. These 'roles' should not exist. They are imposed on us sociologically - always have been, and although it has improved in the last century particularly, gender stereotypes are still very present in Western society.
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    one thing I find strange is the gross under-representation of women in roles which don't reasonably have a basis to be considered 'non-female'.

    I can understand why there aren't many midhusbands - the function they perform affects only WOMEN during childbirth.

    But statistics suggesting that over 97% of traders are male is quite shocking when trading isn't especially 'male'.

    It would be interesting to find out the reasons behind female underrepresentation in these roles: - Maybe;

    a) women (ON AVERAGE!) are not as capable as men (though a few women are exceptional) or...

    b) far fewer women then men apply for these roles so naturally (all other variables being equal) there is less female representation.

    It would be interesting to get statistics on the ratio of male:female applicants for certain courses at university/entry-level jobs/graduate positions and correlate these with relative proportions of each gender who successfully enter the said course/university/career.

    squishysquish.
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    (Original post by serrellen)

    If I am good at mechanics, I want to be a mechanic without people thinking "But... she's a woman...".

    If a man is good at nursing, he shouldn't be sniggered at because nursing is a girly profession. These 'roles' should not exist. They are imposed on us sociologically - always have been, and although it has improved in the last century particularly, gender stereotypes are still very present in Western society.
    Hmm, I think you seem to misunderstand me again...

    I don't think that you should be 'sniggered at' if you are a man in the nursing profession, not at all. I was in hospital recently and one of the nurses was a man, and to be honest i had not even considered the fact that he WAS a man in a 'female' job until you just said that!

    I think the point is that many people, myself included, just don't really see it as that big an issue anymore. yeah, i expect the mechanic to be a man; but if they were a woman i wouldn't go into some kind of shock and demand that I have a male mechanic! Personally I feel quite happy to live out my life within the framework of a fairly typical female role; I'm going to uni, possibly do some voluntary work somewhere for a year, come back, hopefully meet someone settle down and have kids, who i will happily be a traditional 'mum' to and I'll expec flowers on mothers day etc etc.

    To be honest, I think it's sad that many women still feel that there IS still such inequality. I think there comes a time when we have to accept that there are always going to be expectations up to a certain point of the sexes and then just move on. If you're a woman and you want to work in the fire service or you want to be a raleigh driver or whatever, just go ahead and say 'to hell with it', and do it! It IS possible to do these things now if you want to, although in some cases where strength for example might be an issue in work it might not be advisory. The original movement of feminism, i think, was very admirable but does modern feminism have such importance as it did then?
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    (Original post by xps.systems)
    I'm sorry to hear about problems with men in your life.

    Why is it too early in the day - it's nearly 5pm?

    Many women advance the argument that men NEED women for sex - again sex is NOT something you NEED although people may like it. Sex can easily be simulated (for men) using a hand/fleshlight/doll.

    Again, I can't speak for all men but I have never needed a woman for sexo in all my 20 years so it obviously is not a necessity.

    squish.
    I'm sure you are.

    I know - but that's early :yawn:

    So would you happily live without a woman for sex for the rest of your life?
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    (Original post by xps.systems)
    a) women (ON AVERAGE!) are not as capable as men (though a few women are exceptional) or...
    :mad: :mad: :mad: Lies!!!
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    (Original post by TheButtylicious)
    :mad: :mad: :mad: Lies!!!
    OK, OK - not trying to be offensive! It could also be the other way round!

    There are both exceptional men and women - and not-so-capable men and women. But in certain situations there could be more exceptional men than there are exceptional women (and vice versa) so that may be a reason for the gender imbalance.

    Also, it's quite strange given that (ON AVERAGE) girls outperform boys at school yet there is significantly more male representation on the trade-floor? (97.5% : 2.5%)

    squish.
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    (Original post by xps.systems)
    OK, OK - not trying to be offensive! It could also be the other way round!

    There are both exceptional men and women - and not-so-capable men and women. But in certain situations there could be more exceptional men than there are exceptional women (and vice versa) so that may be a reason for the gender imbalance.

    Also, it's quite strange given that (ON AVERAGE) girls outperform boys at school yet there is significantly more male representation on the trade-floor? (97.5% : 2.5%)

    squish.
    Do you not think that's possibly due to some kind of sexism issue between the generic 'women's role' and traditional values taken up by women?

    (Now having completely changing my attitude because I'm growing to you) If I was on the trade floor, 3 days a month I'm sure all the men in the building would run 40 miles to get away from me. Stockbroking + PMS = Not good.

    I think men are generally calmer than women. We'd just get stressed out much more easily.
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    (Original post by TheButtylicious)
    In every way virtually possible. There is no need for men now what so ever - so we done?

    (I'm currently hating men at the moment. I'll be over it by tomorrow)
    fail
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    Women get maternity leave for what is it, 6 months? and men get like 2 weeks?
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    (Original post by TheButtylicious)
    I'm sure you are.

    I know - but that's early :yawn:

    So would you happily live without a woman for sex for the rest of your life?
    Yep, I suppose it would be nice to meet a women where the feeling was mutual etc. but I am busy with my career, study and work etc. so probably couldn't devote much time to a relationship anyway.

    I think I could quite easily last without sex because I can just use my hand. Also it would be harsh to pressurize somebody into sex, no?

    squish.
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    (Original post by xps.systems)
    Yep, I suppose it would be nice to meet a women where the feeling was mutual etc. but I am busy with my career, study and work etc. so probably couldn't devote much time to a relationship anyway.

    I think I could quite easily last without sex because I can just use my hand. Also it would be harsh to pressurize somebody into sex, no?

    squish.
    What do you do?

    Why would you have to pressurise someone? There are plenty of ****s around anyways I'm not sure plently of men would agree to that one mate. I'm sure my ex wouldn't :sigh:
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    (Original post by TheButtylicious)
    Do you not think that's possibly due to some kind of sexism issue between the generic 'women's role' and traditional values taken up by women?

    (Now having completely changing my attitude because I'm growing to you) If I was on the trade floor, 3 days a month I'm sure all the men in the building would run 40 miles to get away from me. Stockbroking + PMS = Not good.

    I think men are generally calmer than women. We'd just get stressed out much more easily.
    sexism accouting for the 90%+ difference? (under squishy boy's stats)

    i think men are actually less calm, it's their testosterone and innate affinity for risk and quick rewards which causes the volatility of markets

    i read somewhere, that more woman should be on the floor to smooth things out more. again a massive generalisation, from this writer, but an interesting point
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    (Original post by jabed786)
    Women get maternity leave for what is it, 6 months? and men get like 2 weeks?
    But men get paternity leave... which isn't even going anywhere... I thought the govt was shortening paternity leave to like 2 days or something.
    I don't really agree with that tbh; I think who ever is taking the majority care/responsibility should get the time off... not both though
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    (Original post by ronaldo91)
    sexism accouting for the 90%+ difference? (under squishy boy's stats)

    i think men are actually less calm, it's their testosterone and innate affinity for risk and quick rewards which causes the volatility of markets

    i read somewhere, that more woman should be on the floor to smooth things out more. again a massive generalisation, from this writer, but an interesting point
    Okay probably not... but what are the figures for general female employment? - Squishy Boy?!

    I agree with you; although I just think women are generally better - no offence
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    (Original post by TheButtylicious)
    Do you not think that's possibly due to some kind of sexism issue between the generic 'women's role' and traditional values taken up by women?

    (Now having completely changing my attitude because I'm growing to you) If I was on the trade floor, 3 days a month I'm sure all the men in the building would run 40 miles to get away from me. Stockbroking + PMS = Not good.

    I think men are generally calmer than women. We'd just get stressed out much more easily.
    well, I'm not going to lie (this is also anecdotal evidence too) but in the recruitment events to enter the industry, interview sessions, and assessment centres I've consistently seen a distinctly higher number of males than female (more exaggerated in situations where more quantitative skills were demanded).

    Of course I was not at ALL assessment centres or recruiting events so this may not be true at all but this is just my experience. There are events run which specifically target women to get them more involved (e.g. JP Morgan's Winning Women).

    Coping with stress and being as rational as possible are certainly valuable traits when you're trading. That said, maybe society permits women to express their emotions more often than men but this doesn't mean that a woman is 'less suited' to trading. I have had female teachers in the past and could never tell when they were menstruating so I'm sure that this wouldn't really 'get in the way' of being able to trade successfully - can you tell when a woman is on her period?

    Some say that single-sex education is the best way to combat 'gender stereotyping' before entering the workplace. What do you reckon?

    squish.
 
 
 
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