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Think.. What Do You Really Think And Feel About Women Wearing Hijabs?? watch

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    (Original post by Darkness and Mist)
    Its meant to be taken literally now is it?

    Then I was right and it does not command you to wear a headscarf over your head, it says you must cover your bosoms with one, it says nothing about the headscarf covering your head at any point.
    Yes it does - the word used is khimar, which is an item of clothing which is being used to cover the head.
    If it isn't being used to cover your head, it is not a khimar, it is just a piece of cloth. In the same way that a pond with no water is not a pond, it's just a hole in the ground.


    Furthermore, I quoted this earlier to you, which you seem to have completely ignored:

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: "Asma bint Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah while she was wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands." Sunnan Abu Dawud 32:4092

    i.e. nothing may be displayed except the hands and the face.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    The word used is "head-coverings". How can you cover your breasts with a head-covering if you don't have a head-covering?
    If you aren't covering your head with it, then it is not a head-covering, it's just a piece of cloth.

    What makes you think headscarves were common when the Qur'an was written?



    And in any case:

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: "Asma bint Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah while she was wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands." Sunnan Abu Dawud 32:4092
    Sorry but when you point at someones head doesn't that automatically include the hair too?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

    And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or...


    The Qur'an seems to be talking about head-coverings there?
    To me that sounds like something which was already being worn should be used to cover boobs, rather than it being necessary to wear a head covering. It sounds like it's necessary to cover boobs.

    Anyway, I don't have a prolem with a head scarf at all, I think they are quite attractive. Veils are another story that I don't want to get into.
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    (Original post by ito725)
    eh, to the guy whu says using your brain when given a instruction from god. you dont question the instructsion you just do it, god gave you a brain so you can compleat the task not change it/quesion it/decide whthere its moral. religions dont need you to think they need you to worship/follow. reason why im generally against the idea of religions.


    has anyone ever seen shmpoo comercials in muslim countries when they wear the Hijabs. funny.
    That was me lol


    My religions teaches me self reliance and independence from the gods, I view gods as fellow sentient beings not as a dictators.

    Not all religious people jump when told to.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I wouldn't see it as a direct commandment to own a car, I would see it as a commandment which is impossible to fulfill unless you own a car.
    Because the verse has stated "Take your car", not someone else's car, or a different mode of transport altogether.

    Does that make sense?
    So if you have a car, do it. If you don't, perhaps because the law says you can't, or because you live somewhere where nobody drives, or you can't afford one, the commandment isn't for you?
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    I really fail to see why people get so het up about girls wearing headscarves. People have worn head coverings throughout history. It's not invasive, and in hot countries it is also practical.

    I read somewhere that many women wear the full veil because they believe that a man should love them for their personality, not their appearance. I can relate.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Yes it does - the word used is khimar, which is an item of clothing which is being used to cover the head.
    If it isn't being used to cover your head, it is not a khimar, it is just a piece of cloth. In the same way that a pond with no water is not a pond, it's just a hole in the ground.


    Furthermore, I quoted this earlier to you, which you seem to have completely ignored:

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: "Asma bint Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah while she was wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands." Sunnan Abu Dawud 32:4092

    i.e. nothing may be displayed except the hands and the face.
    I could drape a bedsheet over myself, it being used as clothing doesnt stop it being a bedsheet. You are now, after telling me to take things literally, reverting to implications.

    Things can be used for purposes other that that which they were designed for :eek:

    I have responed to that passage many times, and I still view it as ambigious and not definitive, as I would say hair covers you up and if a muslim decides that is what they believe it to mean, they dont automatically stop being a muslim and you have no right to claim that they are wrong and treat them like they are ignorant or ill informed.
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    (Original post by Llrael)
    I read somewhere that many women wear the full veil because they believe that a man should love them for their personality, not their appearance. I can relate.
    Maybe because society and the history of their religion (with the teachings of male Muslims) dictates them to think so? Socialization theory, and all that.
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Er, may I be terribly daring, and propose that the school may have been Christian? Therefore, if a Muslim decides to send their children to a Christian school they must accept that there's going to be a predominant focus upon Christian worship. It'd be the same for a Christian in a Muslim school no doubt.
    No it was a normal elementary school and that wasn't the point I'm making. It's just that whenever Muslims try to "impose" anything Islamic on non Muslims everyone seems to get uncomfortable and uneasy as they're forced to sit next to a sex pest or something.

    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Please don't try and pigeon-hole all non-Muslims. Instead, address the person you're talking to specifically, don't factor me in. I hate religion, all religions, in an ideal world we'd all be secular, free from the oppressive power of religious doctrines. And Sharia Law is unbelievably horrid, there's no denying that. Any law that wants to kill homosexuals, or cut the hands off theives is evil, in my opinion.
    I wasn't referring to all non Muslims but MOST feel this way my own family feels this way ffs. And you bring the issue of Sharia and hand cutting, I think I replied to you before on this certain issue about the conditions that have to be met before someone has his hand cut but people totally ignore this and refer to the most severe sentence as if it is the most handed down and to poor ill fated victims under sharia law.

    To always concentrate on the bad thing doesn't achieve anything other than destroying people's culture and faith
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Small point. So many people tell me that the whole point isn't to take the Qu'ran literally (quite like the Bible). If I take the Qu'ran on a whole literal level then I can only conclude that the religion is made up of maniacs (which I don't believe is the case).

    I'll refer to the verse which tells a man to beat his wife. Shall I take that literally? When I bring this up with Muslims, they say it's not supposed to be taken literally.
    The Qur'an is supposed to be taken literally, but it isn't supposed to be taken out of context - if you see the distinction.

    For example, people often quote "Kill the unbelievers where you find them" - but this is taken out of context. Which unbelievers are they talking about?
    And if you read the previous verses, it is clear that it is referring to those unbelievers who have started to fight a war against the Muslims.

    The verse about beating wives - this is also meant to be taken literally. However, the word "beat" in English does not mean exactly the same thing as the word "adribu" in Arabic.
    So it often happens that people attempt to take it literally, but use the word "beat", instead of the correct Arabic word, which means something different.

    First of all, the Arabic word used here, adribu has many meanings, such as: 'to beat', but also: to forsake, leave, or avoid. It also means 'to beat' in the sense of beating someone at a game of chess.

    Because of the ambiguity of the meaning, the Prophet explained himself exactly what the verse means.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-lOCFvGwro If you're interested.
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    [QUOTE=Lolabunny18]The only thing i dont understand about women in hijabs is that if it says in their religion that they should, then why do only some women do it? If there are muslim women that don't, then it must mean that it isn't compulsory to wear it. [QUOTE]

    This alone counters the arguments of people who think the hijab is forced everywhere and muslim women are being oppressed. Islam says women should wear the hijab but at the end of the day its a CHOICE. Women do what they think they should.

    Besides, i was always taught that if i dont do something for god because i want to do it, i.e i huff and puff and hate everybody around me etc etc i may as well not do it because he wont accept the deed or action that is forced. Islam places major major MAJOR emphasis on intentions. if i do something without the right intentions the action is practically void. the same thing applies with people who do wear head scarves out of their own choice but for the wrong reasons, i.e to impress, dress with the fashion and so on...

    Here is an example of what happens when people are forced by laws to wear the sacrves:the guy who was trying to use Iran as an example against muslims etc? what happens? Woman half wear the scarf. actually they just throw the scarf loosely over their heads, their entire hair is on show and it is absolutely unnecessary coz it wont mean anything to god. Ive been raised on the belief that u cant force some1 to convert. why? 4get the moral and humans right issues behind the action. BUT GOD WILL NOT ACCEPT IT COZ THE PERSON FORCED TO CARRY OUT CERTAIN ISLAMIC ACTIONS WONT BELIEVE IN WHAT HE/SHES DOING.

    Again the stress here is on ur own intentions.
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    (Original post by Hitsit)
    Im very interested, in what young people think of Islam but in particular women who wear the hijab.
    I feel sorry for them.
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    To be frank:

    What pops to mind is that they are probably weak - this is because I can't think of a reason for someone to choose to wear it.
    Secondly, I think they have low self-esteem, because they don't have the balls to face the world and maybe try to avoid men hitting on them or whatever.
    Thirdly, I think they are submissive and masculist. Also, quite straightforward, I think they are religious at a deeper level than other women, because they follow the holy book word by word. I personally do not have a great opinion on seriously religious people. Therefore, my attitude towards women who wear the hijab is negative. However, this is limited to an attitude and definitely doesn't go beyond thought in the form of discimination or insult.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    No it was a normal elementary school and that wasn't the point I'm making. It's just that whenever Muslims try to "impose" anything Islamic on non Muslims everyone seems to get uncomfortable and uneasy as they're forced to sit next to a sex pest or something.
    Well, personally, I don't like the idea of anybody who believes in the fairies (or the equivalent: God) to "impose" anything on me. I would, quite rightly, feel uncomfortable.
    I wasn't referring to all non Muslims but MOST feel this way my own family feels this way ffs. And you bring the issue of Sharia and hand cutting, I think I replied to you before on this certain issue about the conditions that have to be met before someone has his hand cut but people totally ignore this and refer to the most severe sentence as if it is the most handed down and to poor ill fated victims under sharia law.
    So ******* what? I don't care if "conditions have to be met", the fact being that it is permitted, and considered morally just, to cut the hands of somebody for theiving. I also note that you always ignore my homosexuality point. Do you think it's right for somebody who happens to be gay to be killed in the most inhumane way?
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    (Original post by musti123)
    Yeah in the middle east it actually v fashionable nowadays to wear it when going out, so a lot of ppl where it for this reason.
    I have no problem with the headscarf (Im muslim), i agree that some people dont wear it properly, and by that i mean wear a head scarf and tight clothes etc. In fact i remember an imam talking on this issue, saying hijab actually means modesty and is correctly used to describe a modest wearing (by men and women), and ppl have taken the least important part of the woman that has to be losely covered (the hair) and taken that to mean the hijab, thus the term being a misnomer, he went as far to say a women wearing modest clothes w/o her hair covered is more acceptable than somebody immodestly dressed (with no flesh showing) and haiir covered... As for the niqaab I have no problem, because unlike most ppl here ive actually met ppl who wear it and talked to them. And came to the conclusion that wearing it isnt their way of 'cutting off from society'. And as far as hinderence from communication is concerned this again is not the case...y?... because unless uve never used the phone, most people are used to conversing w/o face to face, and usually their body language suffices. And it strange how people can view a 4inch piece of cloth to mean somebody is totally different, all it takes to realise is everybody is human. If most ppl put their prejudices aside and find a woman wearing a niqab (not a common thing considering probably 1% of muslim women in th eUK wear it) and hav a convo all the stereotypes will fly out the window

    If you don't know someone, and can't see their face then you are unlikely to speak to them. Expressions are an important way of understanding whether you're invited to start a conversation or if you should shut up when you have. If you are used to wearing a niqab and spend a lot of time with other people wearing one then it's a bit different because you've probably learnt to read different cues. It's not the same for everyone else though, and some consideration then should be taken for the negative attitude others have for a niqab.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    The Qur'an is supposed to be taken literally, but it isn't supposed to be taken out of context - if you see the distinction.

    For example, people often quote "Kill the unbelievers where you find them" - but this is taken out of context. Which unbelievers are they talking about?
    And if you read the previous verses, it is clear that it is referring to those unbelievers who have started to fight a war against the Muslims.

    The verse about beating wives - this is also meant to be taken literally. However, the word "beat" in English does not mean exactly the same thing as the word "adribu" in Arabic.
    So it often happens that people attempt to take it literally, but use the word "beat", instead of the correct Arabic word, which means something different.

    First of all, the Arabic word used here, adribu has many meanings, such as: 'to beat', but also: to forsake, leave, or avoid. It also means 'to beat' in the sense of beating someone at a game of chess.

    Because of the ambiguity of the meaning, the Prophet explained himself exactly what the verse means.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-lOCFvGwro If you're interested.
    So, basically, you're trying to translate the word as you please to appease people who criticise Islam? It's not a secret that Islam is historically, and currently, biased towards men. This command to beat the wife, is not only a harsh way to treat one’s wife, it portrays the degraded position of married women in Islam. Islam views the woman as inferior to the man and as such, places her in a subservient and subordinate position in the marriage relationship. The man is allowed to discipline his wife because he is her superior and responsible for her. He has the authority to beat his wife if he feels she is being disobedient. Wife beating is merely the bad fruit of a bad theological root.

    If you still persist in denying it, here's a few passages from the (english translated) version of the Qu'ran.
    Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell[1]

    Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. Dawood[2]

    Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. Pickthall[3]

    Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great. Arberry[4]

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Shakir[5]

    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Ali[6]
    I would have a lot more respect for you, and your religion, if you didn't deny things that are quite clearly true. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient" This jumps out to me immediately. Women = obedient. Men = Rulers.

    No?
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    (Original post by Darkness and Mist)
    I could drape a bedsheet over myself, it being used as clothing doesnt stop it being a bedsheet. You are now, after telling me to take things literally, reverting to implications.

    Things can be used for purposes other that that which they were designed for :eek:
    That's a bedsheet though.
    Remember we're not talking about the English word "Headscarf", we're talking about the Arabic word "Khimar". It is not a "Khimar" unless it is being used at that particular instant in time to cover one's head.

    A khimar is not an object which is designed to be used as a headscarf, a khimar is an object which is currently being used as a head-covering.

    I have responed to that passage many times, and I still view it as ambigious and not definitive, as I would say hair covers you up
    But then the hair itself is still exposed, isn't it?

    In English, you may disagree, and claim that the hair is not part of the body. But in Arabic, it is. The Arabic word "body" refers to the entirety of the physical form of something.

    In English, the "body" of a car refers to the metal part which gives it its shape. The main part of it.
    In Arabic, the "body" of a car refers to every single physical aspect of the car - the metal part, the tyres, the steering wheel etc.

    and if a muslim decides that is what they believe it to mean, they dont automatically stop being a muslim and you have no right to claim that they are wrong and treat them like they are ignorant or ill informed.
    When did I claim that the original poster was wrong?
    I've said this many times - I referred him to this verse because I suspected that he had not come across it.
    If he had come across it, it is unlikely that he would say that the head-covering is not compulsory, seeing as the most vast majority of Islamic scholars state that it is compulsory, by means of this verse alone.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    And you bring the issue of Sharia and hand cutting, I think I replied to you before on this certain issue about the conditions that have to be met before someone has his hand cut but people totally ignore this and refer to the most severe sentence as if it is the most handed down and to poor ill fated victims under sharia law.

    To always concentrate on the bad thing doesn't achieve anything other than destroying people's culture and faith
    I don't get what your trying to say? So hand-cutting was the most sever sentence but the rest was fine? Like in Afghanistan where women were not allowed to leave the house without a "mahram" and weren't allowed to be treated by male doctors even though women were not allowed to work?
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    So, basically, you're trying to translate the word as you please to appease people who criticise Islam?
    No, I've translated the word as the Prophet translated it, whose authority is superior to any of our own with respect to Qur'anic interpretation.

    It's not a secret that Islam is historically, and currently, biased towards men. This command to beat the wife, is not only a harsh way to treat one’s wife, it portrays the degraded position of married women in Islam. Islam views the woman as inferior to the man and as such, places her in a subservient and subordinate position in the marriage relationship. The man is allowed to discipline his wife because he is her superior and responsible for her. He has the authority to beat his wife if he feels she is being disobedient. Wife beating is merely the bad fruit of a bad theological root.

    If you still persist in denying it, here's a few passages from the (english translated) version of the Qu'ran.


    I would have a lot more respect for you, and your religion, if you didn't deny things that are quite clearly true. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient" This jumps out to me immediately. Women = obedient. Men = Rulers.

    No?
    You're still going by what a few translations say. Yes, in one of them it uses the word "superior", in Dawud's translation - but most Muslims do not accept Dawud's translation as being wholly accurate.

    The word itself means "protector", or "guardian" with connotations of having responsibility for something.

    Yes, in Islam, men are considered to have a responsibility towards the well-being of women. Women are asked to make the job of the man easier by doing as they ask. (If you had a bodyguard who was responsible for protecting you, and the bodyguard told you to run and hide, you'd do it, wouldn't you?)

    This is not a ruler-slave relationship, in that the man can say "go and get me some coffee", and the woman must obey.


    As I said, the Qur'an is meant to be taken literally in Arabic, not in someone else's English translation. An English translation need not necessarily express the exact ideas that the Qur'an is conveying.
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    I hate seeing women wearing niqabs/burkas :mad: . They are a tool used to oppress women and visibly separate the woman from the rest of society. Why should women be made to cover themselves? A hijab is a way of undermining a womans autonomy and humanity.
 
 
 
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