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Can instrumental music communicate messages to people? Watch

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    (Original post by Meenapixi)
    mee too and then I realise...no! Its Sahds its such a small world...even on TSR, the love between pon & zi is comparable to that of romeo and juliet...anthony and cleopatra....david and victoria beckham :P teehee
    whos pon & zi?? :confused:
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    (Original post by Sahds)
    whos pon & zi?? :confused:

    oh...dear.....the characters in your thumbnail photo....they're called pon and zi.
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    I think instrumental music can sometimes have even more meaning than lyrics. You can feel what the composer was feeling when it was written and you can just feel the raw emotion in the music...

    Or at least that's how I find it anyway! I find that sometimes the lyrics get in the way...
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    (Original post by Meenapixi)
    oh...dear.....the characters in your thumbnail photo....they're called pon and zi.
    :o: i just thought they looked cute, i didnt know they're names
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    (Original post by thethinker)
    This is a question that has been puzzling me. Schopenhauer thought that music is an art form 'independent of the phenomenal world' while Kant thought that while intsrumental music is beautiful it is ultimately trivial. What do you think?
    What the ****?!
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    I think that instrumental music has meaning just like any other type of music, well it certainly does for me. Sometimes a really well put together instrumental track speaks pages more words than songs with lyrics, for me anyway. Its all about interpretation at the end of the day.
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    Yes. Although obviously less quantifiable than music with lyrics and probably more subjective. Any music that evokes an emotional response from the listener has a meaning.
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    (Original post by shamrock92)
    What the ****?!
    http://everything2.com/title/Schopen...other%2520arts

    Edit: I think this thread has more meaning than 'Christians - Kissing Before Marriage - Wrong?'
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    (Original post by thethinker)
    http://everything2.com/title/Schopen...other%2520arts

    Edit: I think this thread has more meaning than 'Christians - Kissing Before Marriage - Wrong?'
    That was a straightforward issue which had clearly delineated content, and I got some decent, coherent responses.

    This thread has no such thing. "What is the meaning of music?" - what does that mean? And then we get a load of responses such as "Yeah it must do 'cos 2pac is well sik init!!!!!!!11111"

    I've had enough of these stupid ******* threads being created in this sub-forum. Something needs to be done - someone sensible like RawJoh should have the power to delete threads.
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    (Original post by shamrock92)
    That was a straightforward issue which had clearly delineated content, and I got some decent, coherent responses.

    This thread has no such thing. "What is the meaning of music?" - what does that mean? And then we get a load of responses such as "Yeah it must do 'cos 2pac is well sik init!!!!!!!11111"

    I've had enough of these stupid ******* threads being created in this sub-forum. Something needs to be done - someone sensible like RawJoh should have the power to delete threads.
    I think that that post was meant to be funny; something which I think the majority of people here understood. I think that the issue is clearly defined. People think some things have meaning eg language because it's meaningful to them. I'm asking whether instrumental music has some sort of profound point to it. I regcognise that 'meaning' is not the right word; forgive me for my lack of eloquence. This thread has had a lot of coherent and interesting reposnses, for example Arturo Bandini's post. I sincerly apologise if this thread wasted your time and I hope I don't annoy you again.
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    (Original post by DaveParlour)
    If any form of sound, including our voice, has meaning, then music has meaning, it is merely in a different language. Meaning is found and interpreted by the listener.
    Exactly!! Meaning does not necessarily mean the written/spoken word. The best way to put this is if you're listening to music, with lyrics, where you have NO IDEA what they're on about. You might think it's pointless, but someone who understands the language may feel it to be the most beautiful piece they've ever heard. The same, I personally think, applies to instrumental music. Certain people may think it trash, but those who can interpret it and translate it and understand it are really going to be moved by it. In fact, because instrumental music transcends language barriers, it may have the ability to carry a meaning of its own. Multiple meanings of its own, and thus have the ability to move more people than music with lyrics.
    Unfortunately, techno/house is just a random bunch of beats to me, and wicked as they are, I personally cannot find *meaning* in them.
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    Why is the emphasis on instrumental music?
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    Instrumental musci has the deepest meaning, simply becaue it allows they listner to be enveloped in the music and everyone will come to their own conclusions about it, lyric-ed music is more structured in they way that the lyrics will always to a large extent dictate the emotion/conclusion you will come to at the end
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    (Original post by thethinker)
    I think that that post was meant to be funny; something which I think the majority of people here understood. I think that the issue is clearly defined. People think some things have meaning eg language because it's meaningful to them. I'm asking whether instrumental music has some sort of profound point to it. I regcognise that 'meaning' is not the right word; forgive me for my lack of eloquence. This thread has had a lot of coherent and interesting reposnses, for example Arturo Bandini's post. I sincerly apologise if this thread wasted your time and I hope I don't annoy you again.
    All I'm asking is that you clearly articulate exactly what the issue is and how it's philosophically relevant before you start a thread. You wouldn't go onto the Maths forum with an ambiguous post; nor would people who don't understand the issues bother replying. Threads on this forum have a habit of attracting stupid responses. If you're asking "Can music communicate messages to people?" then ask it clearly; don't bring in vagaries like "meaning".

    I just don't feel that you've thought through exactly what the issue is; and, even as an inexperienced amateur, I understand and respect the fact that clarity is essential to philosophy.
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    (Original post by Sahds)
    :o: i just thought they looked cute, i didnt know they're names
    its ok u learn somthing new every day you might wana look up the other cartoons with them they're sooo cute!
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    (Original post by ChopinNocturne)
    I think instrumental music can sometimes have even more meaning than lyrics. You can feel what the composer was feeling when it was written and you can just feel the raw emotion in the music...

    Or at least that's how I find it anyway! I find that sometimes the lyrics get in the way...
    This

    (Original post by MichaelG)
    I think that instrumental music has meaning just like any other type of music, well it certainly does for me. Sometimes a really well put together instrumental track speaks pages more words than songs with lyrics, for me anyway. Its all about interpretation at the end of the day.
    And also this.
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    Short answer: Yes, and often far better than vocals on their own can.

    Long answer: Well obviously messages consisting of specific words or characters can't be conveyed in the straightforward sense like lyrics can, however the actual music of a song/composition, in addition to its production and performance can do far more to convey the emotions and atmosphere of the composer/performer than simple words, at least in my experience. While lyrics can be stimulating from an intellectual side, and certainly for most people are the easiest way to receive the "message" of the piece, I often find the biggest impact is from how the vocals are delivered, because that makes you feel and sympathise with the emotion. And that can be done by ANY instrument, whether its the voice, a guitar or a classical instrument. When you hear the "sadness" or "anger" in a singers voice, it is not lyrics they are singing that are provoking a response but the fluctuations and style of their singing, which is an "instrument" in itself.

    For me, vocals in "traditional" songs tend to be the "filler" over the more standard verse parts, spacing out the catchy/emotional/dark instrumental parts so that they aren't so commonplace that they take away the impact. When I "eargasm" it's usually to a particularly good stream of notes in a solo (Whether guitar/bass/violin, depending on the genre) or a riff/rhythm part that the song has been leading up to, you KNOW is coming and so have been fired up ready to experience it. All of this is because the composer/performer has specifically designed the hearer to feel like this, based upon how they themselves react. So they have certainly succeeded in communicating their message.

    Words came AFTER feelings, language was simply one attempt at providing a way for a person to transmit their feelings and intent externally, and music is just another form of doing that. While it is far more abstract, this actually works in its favour for causing emotional response and pleasure, because you (literally) FEEL the notes by their vibrations, and so this is a far more direct route to your own thoughts and emotions than by having to "translate" from a specific stream of otherwise meaningless sounds (words) into things that have personal meaning for you. You're not hearing someone else "saying" the notes, and having to process them on an intellectual level in order to understand their meaning, but rather they are simply there to be felt and experienced. Whilst you can't transmit factual information via music as well as you can with words (unless you use some kind of code) you can certainly provoke more emotional sympathy from a hearer than words alone can. You can cause someone to understand your message of "I am sad" with a sequence of notes or a particular method of vocal production rather than with someone simply singing the words "I am sad" in a monotone. You can take a person on a journey with music, so they can experience the ups and downs and variations and intensities of the feeling, atmosphere or mood they want to convey, experiencing it WITH the author.

    Vocals can have the same effect as music, whether they are a particular climax or part of the overall atmosphere and mood of a song. For me its always the overall aural experience, with particular parts highlighted that you can focus on to "think along to" that transmits the most emotion, gives the sense of atmosphere and causes the biggest pleasure. And what is that if not experiencing the message the composer/performers worked to provoke? By listening and experiencing to the song and being given a sensation, whether its a sad/happy/angry or simply a vague "mood", you have received the message the author was attempting to communicate. You don't need vocals at all to convey a message, vocals can often aid the process, but they are simply another instrument in a composers arsenal.
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    (Original post by ft194)
    Short answer: Yes, and often far better than vocals on their own can.

    Long answer: Well obviously messages consisting of specific words or characters can't be conveyed in the straightforward sense like lyrics can, however the actual music of a song/composition, in addition to its production and performance can do far more to convey the emotions and atmosphere of the composer/performer than simple words, at least in my experience. While lyrics can be stimulating from an intellectual side, and certainly for most people are the easiest way to receive the "message" of the piece, I often find the biggest impact is from how the vocals are delivered, because that makes you feel and sympathise with the emotion. And that can be done by ANY instrument, whether its the voice, a guitar or a classical instrument. When you hear the "sadness" or "anger" in a singers voice, it is not lyrics they are singing that are provoking a response but the fluctuations and style of their singing, which is an "instrument" in itself.

    For me, vocals in "traditional" songs tend to be the "filler" over the more standard verse parts, spacing out the catchy/emotional/dark instrumental parts so that they aren't so commonplace that they take away the impact. When I "eargasm" it's usually to a particularly good stream of notes in a solo (Whether guitar/bass/violin, depending on the genre) or a riff/rhythm part that the song has been leading up to, you KNOW is coming and so have been fired up ready to experience it. All of this is because the composer/performer has specifically designed the hearer to feel like this, based upon how they themselves react. So they have certainly succeeded in communicating their message.

    Words came AFTER feelings, language was simply one attempt at providing a way for a person to transmit their feelings and intent externally, and music is just another form of doing that. While it is far more abstract, this actually works in its favour for causing emotional response and pleasure, because you (literally) FEEL the notes by their vibrations, and so this is a far more direct route to your own thoughts and emotions than by having to "translate" from a specific stream of otherwise meaningless sounds (words) into things that have personal meaning for you. You're not hearing someone else "saying" the notes, and having to process them on an intellectual level in order to understand their meaning, but rather they are simply there to be felt and experienced. Whilst you can't transmit factual information via music as well as you can with words (unless you use some kind of code) you can certainly provoke more emotional sympathy from a hearer than words alone can. You can cause someone to understand your message of "I am sad" with a sequence of notes or a particular method of vocal production rather than with someone simply singing the words "I am sad" in a monotone. You can take a person on a journey with music, so they can experience the ups and downs and variations and intensities of the feeling, atmosphere or mood they want to convey, experiencing it WITH the author.

    Vocals can have the same effect as music, whether they are a particular climax or part of the overall atmosphere and mood of a song. For me its always the overall aural experience, with particular parts highlighted that you can focus on to "think along to" that transmits the most emotion, gives the sense of atmosphere and causes the biggest pleasure. And what is that if not experiencing the message the composer/performers worked to provoke? By listening and experiencing to the song and being given a sensation, whether its a sad/happy/angry or simply a vague "mood", you have received the message the author was attempting to communicate. You don't need vocals at all to convey a message, vocals can often aid the process, but they are simply another instrument in a composers arsenal.
    Thanks for that interesting response; I'll rep you tomorrow. Would you give examples of music and the various emotions it creates.
 
 
 
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