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    (Original post by Olivia_Lightbulb)
    To an extent, to continue our economic development we do. Also, immigration doesn't dilute the indigenous culture, it adds to it.
    I would disagree. Focusing on education and birthrates at home is a far better way to ensure sustained economic development which is stable and doesn't rely solely on massive short-term gain via immigrants who will provide cheaper work.

    I would like you to explain how the indigenous culture is being added to by immigration. The very nature of multi-culturalism means that the native culture is pushed to one side and diluted, whilst other newer cultures are celebrated and encouraged to grow. On the scale we see in Britain today, it really is an unproven social engineering experiment which can do nothing but sweep aside previous British identity and culture.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I would disagree. Focusing on education and birthrates at home is a far better way to ensure sustained economic development which is stable and doesn't rely solely on massive short-term gain via immigrants who will provide cheaper work.

    I would like you to explain how the indigenous culture is being added to by immigration. The very nature of multi-culturalism means that the native culture is pushed to one side and diluted, whilst other newer cultures are celebrated and encouraged to grow. On the scale we see in Britain today, it really is an unproven social engineering experiment which can do nothing but sweep aside previous British identity and culture.
    Immigration benefits do come only in terms of cheap labour - Britain relies upon skilled workers such as doctors, engineers and bankers from abroad to bolster the economy and aid services such as the NHS.

    Britain became a more vibrant, interesting country as a result of immigration. It doesn't 'sweep aside' British culture (although this should really be separated into regional culture i.e, Scottish, English and Welsh culture) it simply means the indigenous people have greater opportunity to experience foreign cultures and broaden their minds.
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    (Original post by Navras)
    Shouting emotion provoking words like NAZI and RACIST it not criticism, it's enciting hatred. Like crying 'witch' or 'communist'.
    Such words, irrespective of the emotion or provocation that may surround them in some circumstances, can nonetheless be true. What you're suggesting is not an argument that shows why it is actually an inaccurate use of terminology to call the BNP racist.


    (Original post by Navras)
    I want you to go on their website and send me a link to something that you think is racist.
    I don't need to go on their website. They not only operate a whites-only membership policy, their entire conception of citizenship is racial. The fundamental belief of this party that being a true citizen in a society is dependent on your descent is intrinsically racist. There could be no clearer expression of what it means to discriminate based upon race.

    (Original post by Navras)
    You're saying that if they change their attitude it wont help change their attitude?
    No, I'm saying that new campaigning strategies and rhetoric are designed such that they hide the fact that their attitudes remain racist. My whole point is that it is possible to have a view which is not articulated by you in blunt terms for political purposes, and that this is what is going on in the case of the BNP. My point is that in reality, their attitudes haven't changed, even though on the face of it they have got milder.

    (Original post by Navras)
    Your logic is more flawed than my carpet (harharhar).
    Be funnier.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I would disagree. Focusing on education and birthrates at home is a far better way to ensure sustained economic development which is stable and doesn't rely solely on massive short-term gain via immigrants who will provide cheaper work.

    I would like you to explain how the indigenous culture is being added to by immigration. The very nature of multi-culturalism means that the native culture is pushed to one side and diluted, whilst other newer cultures are celebrated and encouraged to grow. On the scale we see in Britain today, it really is an unproven social engineering experiment which can do nothing but sweep aside previous British identity and culture.

    What is your definition of British culture?

    What would an immigrant have to do to be British in your eyes?
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    tea and scones, cricket fan and watches midsomer murders????
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    (Original post by Olivia_Lightbulb)
    Immigration benefits do come only in terms of cheap labour - Britain relies upon skilled workers such as doctors, engineers and bankers from abroad to bolster the economy and aid services such as the NHS.
    On a mass scale, cheap labour is the only beneficial( in the short-term) aspect of mass immigration. The majority of those coming in are not for skilled work, and if they are, any good effects for the general population are cancelled out by the huge strain that the lower skilled immigrant and immigrant descended population are putting on organisations like the NHS.

    (Original post by Olivia_Lightbulb)
    Britain became a more vibrant, interesting country as a result of immigration. It doesn't 'sweep aside' British culture (although this should really be separated into regional culture i.e, Scottish, English and Welsh culture) it simply means the indigenous people have greater opportunity to experience foreign cultures and broaden their minds.
    By promoting the growth of other cultures the native culture is naturally pushed to the side- this dilution of British culture is seen in the non-patriotic and pro globalisation attitude of many Brits.To suggest that radically opposing cultures can live happily side by side without problems is as naive as it is stupid, as it suggest that immigrant and immigrant descended will want to assimilate to our way of life anymore than they did when we colonised them in the past.

    I also reject this notion that all cultures are equal, all with their pros and cons. The fact is, third world culture being brought into Britain leads to a second world society.

    Islam imports a disrespect for woman's rights, hatred of minority groups and a set of values which do not fit in with western concepts such as democracy.

    African and Carribean culture imports drugs,teenage gangs, knife crime and a complete lack of social cohesion.

    Obviously, not all members of these groups, even not most of them,support or hold these ideas to themselves. However to suggest a previously stable British society needs outside interference in order to diversify and become more open-minded is ridiculous and counter-productive.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    What is your definition of British culture?

    What would an immigrant have to do to be British in your eyes?
    British culture is the British way of life as defined by elements constantly present throughout British society,such as cultural Christianity.

    An immigrant cannot be British,in an ethnic sense, unless returning from somewhere like Australia where he will revert back to native.

    In a civic sense, all immigrants are British.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    A wicked, liberal lie if ever I saw one. The absolute majority of BNP supporters are upstanding citizens,
    It is not a lie. There have been many cases of known BNP supporters inciting racial hatred and attacking minorities. All in the name of "Britain". You use the word liberal as a curse word. By definition, it is much better word than racist.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    You can state a purpose however much you want- it is set to fail because the very nature of accomodating one culture pushes another to the side. Cultures are not designed to co-exist any further than countries co-exist, and to suggest otherwise has dreadful outcomes on social cohesion and other fronts.
    Why not? Only because there are close minded peoples who cannot deal with the very simple fact that not everyone has the same views and then have to act irrationally about it. If they didn't exist, then the world would be a better place.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    You deny that a native culture exists, yet then claim it is not being diluted. Such an odd determination to attack an arguement from any direction reveals you may hold a deeper agenda, most likely that of total globalisation.
    Say what? Did you not noticed my inverted comma's above native? Implying that it doesn't exist. If you be so kind as to read my earlier comments, you will see why there is not a "native" culture of anywhere, except perhaps in some countries in Africa and the Aborigines of Australia and the Maori.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I'm not a right wing capitalist. I am a nationalist, which means I am situated mostly on the economic left and the social right. I think short-termist capitalist greed andthe raping of the earth's resources for immediate financial gain will be something future generations will hate us for.
    The social right goes hand in hand with the economical right (capitalism), but finally, something we agree on. I despise this destruction of the earth so a few fat cats can line their pockets.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    It would be a country where the political elite rule from segregated areas not touched by their corrupt policies or by the multi-cultural bankrupt slum cities they have created. It already happens to an extent- note the way that the most staunch defenders of the multi-cultural experiment are those who live furthest from it.
    Countries like that already exist, but they're not multicultural.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    Oh,I'm sorry, is it politically incorrect for me to say third world now? I do apologise, but unlike you I do not believe that all cultures are equal and interchangeable.
    Did I say it was politically incorrect? No, I said it was inaccurate and too vague as there are massive differences in the technologies available to the people in developing and developed countries.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    The idea that we can take a third worlder and make them an upstanding Briton is not only incorrect but also as morally bankrupt as suggesting that we should impose our way of life on Africans during the British colonial period.
    How is it immoral? Or even incorrect? Forcing the African peoples to bend to our will was immoral, but if someone moves here, they have every right and chance to succeed and in your words, become an upstanding Briton. I agree that they wont ever be 100% British, purely they weren't born here, but that does not mean that they cannot be a citizen of the UK.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    There is almost no Islamic extremism in this country? Ridiculous claim that does not even warrant a reply.

    They have plenty of recruitment possibilities as a result of dissaproval of British foreign policy in Muslim countries and mass immigration which gives them many people to recruit from.
    Well you replied any way so it obviously does. And the extremism in this country is minute. They are a band of a couple of people here and there. They are also incompetent and therefore not a threat. You keep talking as if all muslims are terrorists or fundalmentalists. Do you know any muslims? Also, try not reading the Daily Mail so much. It is full of bile and hatred. You have clearly been brainwashed.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    British culture is the British way of life as defined by elements constantly present throughout British society,such as cultural Christianity.

    An immigrant cannot be British,in an ethnic sense, unless returning from somewhere like Australia where he will revert back to native.

    In a civic sense, all immigrants are British.
    I'm not a Christian though - so why do I deserve to be here anymore than an immigrant?
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    They want to raise speed limits!!!! :awesome:

    Other than that though.... :sigh:
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    (Original post by Chpz)
    It is not a lie. There have been many cases of known BNP supporters inciting racial hatred and attacking minorities. All in the name of "Britain". You use the word liberal as a curse word. By definition, it is much better word than racist.
    Yes, but that is by any stretch of the imagination "most of BNP supporters", which is to quote you directly. To suggest that all BNP supporters are knuckle dragging skinheads is absolutely ridiculous.

    Liberalism, in it's current form shaped by Marxism, is to blame for most of the problems we face today. It has a lot to answer for, naturally I use it in a derogatory sense.

    (Original post by Chpz)
    Say what? Did you not noticed my inverted comma's above native? Implying that it doesn't exist. If you be so kind as to read my earlier comments, you will see why there is not a "native" culture of anywhere, except perhaps in some countries in Africa and the Aborigines of Australia and the Maori.
    You put forward the arguement that native culture was not being diluted. You then claimed, as you just did, that native culture does not exist. You cannot have it both ways.

    (Original post by Chpz)
    The social right goes hand in hand with the economical right (capitalism), but finally, something we agree on. I despise this destruction of the earth so a few fat cats can line their pockets.
    Nice to see we agree on something .

    (Original post by Chpz)
    Countries like that already exist, but they're not multicultural.
    As more of the third world arrives in Britain, third world politics will follow with it.

    (Original post by Chpz)
    Did I say it was politically incorrect? No, I said it was inaccurate and too vague as there are massive differences in the technologies available to the people in developing and developed countries.
    It was most likely eased along by politically correct feeling.

    "What? We can't refer to ourselves as being in a higher position to anybody else, their culture is just as equal and important as ours you know!"

    :rolleyes:

    (Original post by Chpz)
    How is it immoral? Or even incorrect? Forcing the African peoples to bend to our will was immoral, but if someone moves here, they have every right and chance to succeed and in your words, become an upstanding Briton. I agree that they wont ever be 100% British, purely they weren't born here, but that does not mean that they cannot be a citizen of the UK.
    It is this liberal idea that we should impose our views on the rest of the world,and modernise them and make them more like us( See : protests about democracy in Iran), followed as some sort of moral crusade against lesser cultures whilst at the same time maintaining all cultures are equal and the same.

    The only difference is that at least Britain and the natives benefit from British colonisation of the third world- Britain gains nothing except from moral highground from the third world colonisation of Britain.

    (Original post by Chpz)
    Well you replied any way so it obviously does. And the extremism in this country is minute. They are a band of a couple of people here and there. They are also incompetent and therefore not a threat. You keep talking as if all muslims are terrorists or fundalmentalists. Do you know any muslims? Also, try not reading the Daily Mail so much. It is full of bile and hatred. You have clearly been brainwashed.
    A lot of them are fundamental in their religious beliefs, and in a way why shouldn't they be?Polls suggest a lot of them are in favour of Sharia law, and whilst we have a weak liberal establishment combined with a very weak Christian presence we will continue to bend over backwards to their demands.
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    (Original post by Chpz)
    The social right goes hand in hand with the economical right (capitalism), but finally, something we agree on. I despise this destruction of the earth so a few fat cats can line their pockets.


    .

    Could you please provide me with an example of how the social right goes hand in hand with the economical left?

    Also i think you forget that it is the state which allows the destruction of the earth so a few fat cats and state officials can line their pockets.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    I'm not a Christian though - so why do I deserve to be here anymore than an immigrant?
    You deserve to be here because you are a native. It is your right by birth- your lack of Christian belief doesn't detract from that in any way.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    British culture is the British way of life as defined by elements constantly present throughout British society,such as cultural Christianity.

    An immigrant cannot be British,in an ethnic sense, unless returning from somewhere like Australia where he will revert back to native.

    Well if you are judging British culture only by elements that have been constantly present then i am afraid you are describing an extremely boring old fashioned culture.

    Wouldn't you agree that cultures are destined to evolve and change? I can't think of a society in history (ours included) that did not change dramatically while it existed/exists.

    Could you provide me with an example of a culture that attempted to stay pure and unchanging which didn't end in ruin or give up shortly after.

    You talk of traditional constants. How long must these elements have existed to be classed traditional?

    One final thing, what ten things would you consider elements constantly present throughout British society excluding The church and the Monarchy?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Could you provide me with an example of a culture that attempted to stay pure and unchanging which didn't end in ruin or give up shortly after.
    I am not saying that cultures are not subject to change and development through changes in fields such as technology, however when one witnesses massive demographic shifts in population and a clear dilution of British culture ( and with it, any sense of patriotism) you have to wonder whether you are witnessing cultural change or cultural destruction.

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    You talk of traditional constants. How long must these elements have existed to be classed traditional?
    There are no set borders of time, however it is fairly logical what cultural elements have been part of the British way of life long enough for them to be considered ours, like the cultural Christianity I mentioned before.

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    One final thing, what ten things would you consider elements constantly present throughout British society excluding The church and the Monarchy?
    Culture isn't about a checklist of certain things which can be considered exclusive to the people. It is far more intrinsically linked with society than that, and through such lists British culture would be belittled and deemed insignificant. This is part of what I oppose.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)

    I also reject this notion that all cultures are equal, all with their pros and cons. The fact is, third world culture being brought into Britain leads to a second world society.

    Islam imports a disrespect for woman's rights, hatred of minority groups and a set of values which do not fit in with western concepts such as democracy.

    African and Carribean culture imports drugs,teenage gangs, knife crime and a complete lack of social cohesion.

    Obviously, not all members of these groups, even not most of them,support or hold these ideas to themselves. However to suggest a previously stable British society needs outside interference in order to diversify and become more open-minded is ridiculous and counter-productive.
    And White culture brings in Peadophilia and domestic violence. Everybody can stereotype.

    Also got a couple of nice quotes from BNP memebers

    "Rest assured, all those HOMEGROWN TRATORS who have taken part in the war against our indigenous rights will one day be held to account for their crimes." - Nick Griffin

    "Asians are rubbish, and that is what WE ARE GOING TO CLEAR FROM THE STREETS." - Derek Beackon

    "WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM will be swept away by a future BNP government." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

    See something for everybody. Some of these really quite frightened me.
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    (Original post by Dairy)
    And White culture brings in Peadophilia and domestic violence. Everybody can stereotype.
    Paedophilia is far more prominent in certain African and Asian communities, however it is more socially acceptable so doesn't come into statistics so often. Same with domestic violence- if a Muslim woman is hit by her husband, she is less likely to take it to the police than an member of the indigenous population.

    (Original post by Dairy)
    "Rest assured, all those HOMEGROWN TRATORS who have taken part in the war against our indigenous rights will one day be held to account for their crimes." - Nick Griffin
    Seems pretty fair to me.

    (Original post by Dairy)
    "Asians are rubbish, and that is what WE ARE GOING TO CLEAR FROM THE STREETS." - Derek Beackon
    Out of date comment.

    (Original post by Dairy)
    "WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM will be swept away by a future BNP government." - BNP councillor Simon Smith
    Also probably out of date, but referring to chavs and other scum who live off benefits and disrupt society by causing trouble in their neighbourhoods. National service would sort them out,though.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    Liberalism, in it's current form shaped by Marxism, is to blame for most of the problems we face today. It has a lot to answer for, naturally I use it in a derogatory sense.
    Alot of what you have said can be dealt with this, MARX WAS A GENIUS. How is liberalism to blame for anything? It doesn't get a say. Politics is dominated by conservative policies and so the Tories and capitalism has a lot to answer for and perhaps liberal politics should have a real say.

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)

    You put forward the arguement that native culture was not being diluted. You then claimed, as you just did, that native culture does not exist. You cannot have it both ways.
    I didn't. I said that is no such thing as a native culture, a mass of cultures of peoples who immigrate to a country and combine. They're not there long enough to be native until another lot appear. If it doesn't exist, then it cannot be diluted...

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    "What? We can't refer to ourselves as being in a higher position to anybody else, their culture is just as equal and important as ours you know!"

    :rolleyes:
    That is basically what I have been saying...... seems like I am making progress....

    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    A lot of them are fundamental in their religious beliefs, and in a way why shouldn't they be?Polls suggest a lot of them are in favour of Sharia law, and whilst we have a weak liberal establishment combined with a very weak Christian presence we will continue to bend over backwards to their demands.
    Because Fundamentalism teaches intolerance and if there has been an inaccuracy in interpretation (which there are in extremist groups, purely because of the violence thing) then it leads to situations such as the one we are in now.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I am not saying that cultures are not subject to change and development through changes in fields such as technology, however when one witnesses massive demographic shifts in population and a clear dilution of British culture ( and with it, any sense of patriotism) you have to wonder whether you are witnessing cultural change or cultural destruction.
    But why does it have to be cultural destruction? Why can't it be cultural evolution or elavation. For example the Roman assimilation of Greek culture, there were extraordinary changes, was that cultural destruction of what was a traditional Roman culture at the time, because to me it seems as if their culture changed for the better, especially in regards to patriotism?



    There are no set borders of time, however it is fairly logical what cultural elements have been part of the British way of life long enough for them to be considered ours, like the cultural Christianity I mentioned before.
    But surely among the millions of Britons currently residing in the UK there are going to be radically different views on what has been part of the British way of life, or what they would consider to be British. Who is going to decide what stays and what goes? Are you going to force people to stop following un-British cultures? Or more importantly are you going to force people to partake in British culture 'ala' Nick Griffin's laughable policy about traditional British music (lolwut)



    Culture isn't about a checklist of certain things which can be considered exclusive to the people. It is far more intrinsically linked with society than that, and through such lists British culture would be belittled and deemed insignificant. This is part of what I oppose.

    When people like you elevate it to life and death status in a country where the majority of the population enjoy our ever changing cultural climate, your ideas of British culture do indeed become insignificant and hard to take seriously. You are doing more damage to the reputation of traditional British culture than a thousand immigrants ever could.
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    errm, how is it fair for so called "HOMEGROWN Traitors" to be dealt with just because they do not support BNP views?

    May I also ask, a genuine reason why you love the BNP so? Don't put the blame on Left-wing Parties or immigration, give a genuine reason please
 
 
 
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