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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Hold on, since when has nationalism per se been anything negative? In the 'grand scheme' essentially everybody prior to 1789 had strong commitment to their nation, collective, state or tribe. Indeed, this was a must. People relied on their state. Nationalist sentiment got Britain through two World Wars; nationalist sentiment kept the French Free Resistance going; nationalist sentiment overthrew apartheid. Pray...tell!
    Sorry, I was using nationalism as a by-word for ethnic nationalism and fascism. I suppose, per se, it is not always negative. The sentiment of us versus them is often detrimental - nationalism fuelled the second world war and apartheid.
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    (Original post by Navras)
    Really? Aren't you underestimating what we'd gain from reducing susidies and increasing trade with the commonwealth, specifically Canada.

    Hopefully that will change. I wouldn't consider myself 'liberally minded' though. And you shouldn't imply that it's such a positive thing.

    The word that stands out to me is FORMER. As their popularity grows so will the quality and quantity of their MPs.

    The EU contains France and Germany, these are the only countries that interest me. Why we have to involve ****** economies is beyond me, give them back to Russia I say.

    Do you realise that you're talking complete nonsense?
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    (Original post by JW92)
    Sorry, I was using nationalism as a by-word for ethnic nationalism and facism. I suppose, per se, it is not always negative. The sentiment of us versus them is often detrimental however.
    I wouldn't call the BNP "facist" [sic] either. If you met a real "facist" [sic] - i.e. Roman Ultras - you'd **** yourself and run a mile. In fact I've just had an amusing thought. Imagine the UAF - instead of throwing eggs and bricks and defenseless politicians - taking on the German SA or Italian Blackshirts. LOL.
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    Whether you like it or not, British culture and identity today have been formed as a result of previous British ethnicity and patriotism.
    I cant seem to grasp your fear, do you think that other ethnic groups will come to this country and force "british" people out? do you think your granchild will be forced to live in a different country? I assure you this will not be the case, british culture will change, any culture changes.

    If you lived 100 years ago life would be very different, "british culture" in that time is not "british culture" in this time, so is it not british?

    Now, lets look forward 100 years, now, your family would likely have some other "ethnic person" integrated into it, your great grandchild may have a mother who's mother imegrated from poland. You seem to be scared that this child will not be british? By your prospective laws that child is not, and will be forced out of this country (so, in fact it is you that is destroying our "british culture" )

    Look at your family tree, i assure you you would have at one have an ancestor that has come to this country. I have irish blood. The Angles and Saxons colonised modern-day southern England, the Vikings for gods sake, they invaded!

    Oh, whats this? Our wonderfull monarchy? That must surly be "british", oh wait its german...

    mr Voluntas Mos Victum our country is BUILT on immigration

    a bit of a rant
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    Yes they would.
    Oh ok. Well you said earlier that being White is one of the elements of being British, what are the other elements?
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Nah, you wanna use your buzz-words but rubbish the terms others use. And, the BNP are neo-Nazis and racists. Their policy, of voluntary removal of those they deem not to be 'ethnically British', is extremely and radically racist. They disapprove of 'mixed-race' relationships and marriages too, more obvious racism.

    The claim that the BNP are a racist party isn't going to go away because their policies show them to be exactly that.
    No, because as I said, the words I use are integral to BNP policy and are a part of the debate in which I am engaging.

    Liberal trigger words such as "nazi" and racist" are used for one purpose only- to draw away from the content of the debate and to drag the average voter away from the BNP without even looking at their policies.

    I tend to think they are used simply because so many "anti fascist" groups and other left wing BNP opposers are simply incapable of debate- see Simon Darby's demolition of Weymann Bennett :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwfqB...eature=related
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Hold on, since when has nationalism per se been anything negative? In the 'grand scheme' essentially everybody prior to 1789 had strong commitment to their nation, collective, state or tribe. Indeed, this was a must. People relied on their state. Nationalist sentiment got Britain through two World Wars; nationalist sentiment kept the French Free Resistance going; nationalist sentiment overthrew apartheid. Pray...tell!
    However, Nationalist sentiment also starts wars, - sorry to use an extremely tiring example but the Nazi party was nationalist, and gained its support almost wholly from nationalist feeling in light of a crippled Germany. This lead to involuntary euthanasia, genocide, and indeed the world war.

    And in the past Nationalism has been the cause of many if not all wars, e.g in the ever-growing need for living space, and natural resources.

    It's a double edged sword, i suppose.
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    One thing I've always wondered, what if Nick Griffin had the opposite of what Michael Jackson had and ended up turning black ?
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    I wouldn't call the BNP "facist" [sic] either. If you met a real "facist" [sic] - i.e. Roman Ultras - you'd **** yourself and run a mile. In fact I've just had an amusing thought. Imagine the UAF - instead of throwing eggs and bricks and defenseless politicians - taking on the German SA or Italian Blackshirts. LOL.
    It does really annoy me when people on TSR jump on you for making a typo. Sorry, fascism - is that okay? Besides, the BNP exhibit a lot of fascist characteristics. Also, I'm glad you amused yourself.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    ...

    Liberal trigger words such as "nazi" and racist" are used for one purpose only- to draw away from the content of the debate and to drag the average voter away from the BNP without even looking at their policies.

    ...
    But I have looked at their policies and they have a hugely racist one in which they want to ask people to leave Britain, leave their homes, their jobs and their friends, because they aren't 'ethnically British' (i.e. because they don't fit the BNP's white-nationalist aims). That is extreme and radical racism no matter how you cut it. The BNP website is riddled with references to 'white' this and 'white' that, the defence the 'white working class' and 'white culture', if you deny that this is also all evidence of their racism you're only making yourself look foolish.
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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I am not suggesting they are based on skin colour, but instead on ethnicity. There is a very big difference between the two. Whether you like it or not, British culture and identity today have been formed as a result of previous British ethnicity and patriotism.
    What constitutes an ethnically British person?

    If we go right to the heart of it, the ethnic Brits predominantly reside in Brittany (in France of all places!), Wales and Cornwall. Hardly going to do well with a country that size, are they?
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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    I cant seem to grasp your fear, do you think that other ethnic groups will come to this country and force "british" people out? do you think your granchild will be forced to live in a different country? I assure you this will not be the case, british culture will change, any culture changes.
    Any culture changes, but when undergoing such massive changes such as what we are witnessing now one has to wonder whether they are witnessing cultural change or cultural destruction.

    British people are already moving out of more "diverse" areas within Britain, look into "white flight". In certain areas like Handsworth in Birmingham or Peckham in London, British people have been passively and semi-democratically ethnically cleansed.

    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    If you lived 100 years ago life would be very different, "british culture" in that time is not "british culture" in this time, so is it not british?
    See the above point about cultural change and cultural destruction. All cultures evolve and change as factors like technology come into play, however very few are displaced and diluted in the way we see today.


    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    Look at your family tree, i assure you you would have at one have an ancestor that has come to this country. I have irish blood. The Angles and Saxons colonised modern-day southern England, the Vikings for gods sake, they invaded!
    Those in the country at the time opposed and fought for their current way of life, and they were justified in doing so, just as I am justified in opposing massive cultural change today.
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    (Original post by Navras)
    I just wanted to express my disdain for people that cry NAZI and RACIST at them. I'd like to laugh at these people, but everyone seems to agree with them. So I just get angry.
    This seems to be an increasingly common refrain from BNP apologists, this idea that people who criticise the party are the real ones who are closed-minded and ignorant because they mistakenly label the party as fascist or whatever.

    Perhaps it seems like a clever little ploy - I don't know. Nevertheless, it's simply fallacious. First of all, as has been demonstrated several times on this thread and in other places, the BNP are intrinsically a racist party; they have facist tendencies and reminiscent of other such parties around the world and in history. This should be obvious and isn't really worthy of much further debate.

    The second point, which perhaps needs to be made more strongly, is that the BNP's campaign to 'modernise' and become more politically palatable does not negate or in any way minimise the pernicious nature of their attitudes. Of course they don't explicitly say 'we hate foreigners'. That kind of blunt and extreme statement simply doesn't work as a political strategy because it's not taken seriously by anyone other than a tiny fringe of die-hards. This kind of moderation of campaign strategy is a phenomenon in evidence all over the world. It is why Jobbik don't say 'We want to kill all those ******* gypos' but instead say 'We want to preserve Hungarian national identity'; it is why the Chinese government don't boast about annihilating Falun Gong, they talk about moderating extremism. In other words this kind of moderation is exactly in common with all kinds of facist/extremist political movements. So the fact that the BNP don't themselves say that they're racist is not something that can be used to prove that they are not in fact racists.
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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    "Nice to see people are seeing beyond mass media and left-wing lies." look at their website, i make my opinions based on their media

    oh, and they dont have brittish only membership, they have white brittish only membership
    That's the same thing. :rolleyes:

    What next?

    PRC doesn't have a Chinese only membership - they have a yellow Chinese only membership? Get real.

    "British only" membership does refer to white people - because the British ethnic group is white. Or do you have paintings of Boadicea as a 6 foot tall black woman?
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    Oh ok. Well you said earlier that being White is one of the elements of being British, what are the other elements?
    it seems to me that an element of british culture is ethnic and cultural integration, just look at food, british food is very very diverse.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    What constitutes an ethnically British person?

    (Original post by EskimoJo)
    Oh ok. Well you said earlier that being White is one of the elements of being British, what are the other elements?
    See below :

    The indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous Caucasian’ consist of members of: i) The Anglo-Saxon Folk Community; ii) The Celtic Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community; xi) Members of these ethnic groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    What constitutes an ethnically British person?
    Well, technically, ethnic Britons are the descendents of the original inhabitants of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland during the last Ice Age.
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    Originally Posted by Hanvyj
    "Nice to see people are seeing beyond mass media and left-wing lies." look at their website, i make my opinions based on their media
    oh, and they dont have brittish only membership, they have white brittish only membership

    That's the same thing.

    What next?
    This illustrates my point perfectly, i would consider someone who has grown up in britain british... im sorry, but anyone who has grown up as a part of our culture, is IN our culture and IS BRITISH
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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    im sorry, but anyone who has grown up as a part of our culture, is IN our culture and IS BRITISH
    Would you consider someone who lives detached from Western society in Islamic/Hindu/Sikh/Afro-Caribbean "ghettoes", who wear burkhas, don't speak English, and don't work as British?
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    Originally Posted by Hanvyj
    Look at your family tree, i assure you you would have at one have an ancestor that has come to this country. I have irish blood. The Angles and Saxons colonised modern-day southern England, the Vikings for gods sake, they invaded!
    Those in the country at the time opposed and fought for their current way of life, and they were justified in doing so, just as I am justified in opposing massive cultural change today.
    So, you, with your ancestory of saxon imigration must leave the country to preserve the british culture?

    British people are already moving out of more "diverse" areas within Britain, look into "white flight". In certain areas like Handsworth in Birmingham or Peckham in London, British people have been passively and semi-democratically ethnically cleansed.
    I grew up in keighley, bradford, in this place there is a high (i belive it to be 15%) muslim population, and there is a some segregation of the comunities here and personally i have never thought it that much of a problem. Currently i live in rusholme, manchester; again, when i walk arround i see mostly people with a different skin color to mine... again i dont really see a problem, are you scared of people with a different skin colour?
 
 
 
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