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Medical applications favour the middle class: Agree/ disgree? watch

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    (Original post by BJack)
    And I know loads of people not on EMA who've managed to get plenty of experience. I didn't mean that it's impossible to get work experience unless daddy is a consultant; just that it's probably easier if he is.
    As pointed out earlier, there are plenty of doctors who are from lower socioeconomic backgrounds...
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    (Original post by Sakujo)
    I thought they were increasing pay? Not trying to be argumentative just curious.
    No, pay has effectively been frozen below the rate of inflation and unsocial and overtime bonuses have been removed because apparently we don't do these anymore...
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    (Original post by Renal)
    No, pay has effectively been frozen below the rate of inflation and unsocial and overtime bonuses have been removed because apparently we don't do these anymore...
    In that one sentence you've made me dread the future
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    (Original post by Renal)
    No, pay has effectively been frozen below the rate of inflation and unsocial and overtime bonuses have been removed because apparently we don't do these anymore...

    so you don't get extra pay for unsocial and overtime anymore? thats ridiculous, how can they expect anyone in the NHS with a professional position to NOT go over their expected hours?!
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    I disagree completely, it's difficult to get a place at medical school regardless of your background....as far as i can see the middle classes have no real advantage

    Some may have an easier time gaining work experience due to family contacts, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for others to get experience...when you write to hospitals and GPs they don't write back asking about your economic background
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    (Original post by Meridian_Star)
    Very possibly.

    I don't see why medical degrees should favour the middle class as such. Obviously there's the whole issue with some people living in a crap area and going to a crap school versus some people being able to afford to send their children to a private school or live in a good area with a better comprehensive etc etc, but presumably that's the same with most reasonably competitive degree courses.

    Wait, was the debate about middle-class children being more likely to get a place to study medicine at uni, or about middle class undergraduates doing better than working-class undergraduates once they were on the course? :confused:
    aha! good question.

    One point of view is that:
    A medical course is very different from any other degree. Firstly having experience is very advantageous and can often be miscontrued as "passion" for the subject. However this is not always the case. A straight A-level, hardworking state school student may not have access, rapports or networks to delve into these opportunties. They may be just as able or even more so and as passionate as the middle-class applicant who has access to expensive medical courses which can cost £250+ and work experience.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    No, pay has effectively been frozen below the rate of inflation and unsocial and overtime bonuses have been removed because apparently we don't do these anymore...
    EU iniative?
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    i dont think its the case of universities not taking on low SES candidates but more not enough of them are applying! This is still due to the 'label' and sterotypes doctors and a medical degree still have, old boys club and all that plus not being aware of the the opportunities presented to them.

    during a-levels, my friend who'd had a really rough upbringing in and out of foster homes....but was bright, did well in gcse's, a-levels but didn't think medicine would be good enough for her and she wouldn't be taken on as 'she was rough', plus the sixth form never even spoke to her about it or encouraged her to consider, she wanted to work in healthcare and planned to be a nurse, 1 year on and after a conversation with a doctor on her work experience she's now finished her first year at medical school, but she'd never have had that opportunity or considered it if she hadn't been at the right place at the right time, the information wasn't made avaliable, and teachers weren't aware of how accomodating the course was
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    (Original post by Windsprite)
    They may be just as able or even more so and as passionate as the middle-class applicant who has access to expensive medical courses which can cost £250+ and work experience.
    As you well know, medlink and the like are well known to medical school admissions systems and do not count as work experience - there is no gain to applicants who have wasted their money.

    As for work experience, as discussed above, socio-economic class is not a real barrier to getting significant work ex or getting a job.
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    (Original post by Subcutaneous)
    so you don't get extra pay for unsocial and overtime anymore? thats ridiculous, how can they expect anyone in the NHS with a professional position to NOT go over their expected hours?!
    Perhaps the hope is that those working overtime will agree that the NHS needs the money more than they do. >.>
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    (Original post by Sakujo)
    EU iniative?
    Yep - European Working Time Directive, despite having more patients and the same number of doctors, we can only be paid for 48 hours a week.
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    (Original post by fatal)
    Where on the radio?
    radio 4
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    (Original post by Renal)
    As you well know, medlink and the like are well known to medical school admissions systems and do not count as work experience - there is no gain to applicants who have wasted their money.

    As for work experience, as discussed above, socio-economic class is not a real barrier to getting significant work ex or getting a job.
    But I agree with you! I'm just trying to bring up more points of view which you can then rightly batter if you feel the need too!
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    (Original post by Renal)
    Closed grammar schools, removing scholarships, introducing tuition fees, uncapping tuition fees, doctor's pay cuts, doctor's accom cuts.
    Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes but, as for grammar schools, I don't think you can really blame Labour (or at least New Labour). You can't really hold this government accountable for something that happened a generation ago. True, it was a Labour government that started to close down the grammar schools. But the Conservative governments that followed went along with the policy with just as much zeal. As far as I'm aware it's actually been New Labour's policy, over these past 12 years, of letting local parents decide.

    Also, whether grammar schools increase social mobility or not, it's a hot topic. It can't be denied that many working class students did benefit. I know my grandfather did. Even if his parents weren't able to afford to send him to teacher training college and he worked as a modest clerk instead that's still a step up from his father, a miner. But it's a system that disciminates against late developers. What's more, it wasn't uncommon for a student (who passed the 11+) to be denied entry based on class prejudice ie. they had a father who was a manual worker.

    Then there's those students who fail by even the narrowest of margins and are therefore written off as failures and thrown into demoralising, failing schools. Although my grandfather benefited from the grammar system my father, who narrowly failed the 11+, didn't. Instead he was thrown into a rough school that was said to be the overspill for the grammar. It was ****.

    Possibly a little off topic but....
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    (Original post by Subcutaneous)
    so you don't get extra pay for unsocial and overtime anymore? thats ridiculous, how can they expect anyone in the NHS with a professional position to NOT go over their expected hours?!
    There are still some unsocial bonuses, but they're limited.

    Of course everyone goes over, my first job comes complete with a 55-60 hour week before on call and weekends.

    It's not just that though, in order to make the rotas compliant there's all sorts of half arsed shifts, some people are working 14+ days back to back but somehow don't manage to break the magic 48 hours on paper.
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    (Original post by River85)
    Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes but, as for grammar schools,
    I agree to an extent, and I have to confess some bias after being 'rescued' from a sink estate school, but I think the destruction of education including grammar schools and independant school scholarships is one of Labour's major failings.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    Yep - European Working Time Directive, despite having more patients and the same number of doctors, we can only be paid for 48 hours a week.
    I can't tell you how pissed off I was when I originally read about that. :mad2:
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    I do think access to education is a problem. There are no grammar schools where i live. The nearest one is at about an hour away. I was a fairly high acheiver at school, I would have loved to have been able to do something like the 11+. I applied for schools all over London, but I only got into one. I didn't get into any of the good schools in my borough because they were faith schools and I didn't meet the criteria, and the non faith schools were terrible. The school I did get into was better than the ones in my borough, but was still the worst in the borough it happened to be in with 38% A-C's.

    I was lucky because I had a good teacher in primary school who saw something in me and pushed me, and again in secondary school the odd teacher would go that extra mile to push me. But it could have easily gone the other way. I can see why people who go to crap schools find it hard to imagine even applying for medicine. School can be a very demotivating place!

    And yes I know that there are examples of students going to awful schools who manage to still come out with a string of A*'s and good on them, but they are few and far between.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    I agree to an extent, and I have to confess some bias after being 'rescued' from a sink estate school, but I think the destruction of education including grammar schools and independant school scholarships is one of Labour's major failings.
    Okies, fair enough. I do wonder where I'd be right now if it wasn't for being "Catholic" (and having two top Catholic schools in my area). At least my area is still fairly middle class so even the mediocore comprehensive is still a lot better than many schools. Although what used to be the grammar is now terrible.

    It's not that I don't agree with grammar schools. I just think people look at them with rose tinted spectacles and still don't really address the issues and disadvantages that came with the system alongside the clear advantages. If you benefited from them system yourself then it's natural you'll be a supporter of them and you do certainly have a point.

    Anyway, just something I was thinking about earlier so it was on my mind. I'll leave this to medicine now :p:
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    i think that it's easier for some middle class applicants to access a few things needed for a good application that can make a difference between being rejected or accepted, for example the courses on doing the ukcat,
    the medlink courses , buying loads of ukcat/bmat help books, going abroad for work experience, getting really good tutors and having some links in the medical world etc.

    but i don't think that money is a limiting factor when applying for medicine because it's all about the passion and dedication of the applicant, but it is harder for a person who is not middle class to add the extra 'perks' to their application.
 
 
 
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