why do most british people totally disrespect our soldiers?

cpj1987

No, of course you're allowed to question. There'd be no point in discussing anything, otherwise. :p:

I wouldn't tell a soldier what I thought of them, no. It's their choice what they do, I just don't respect it personally. I also wouldn't attend the funeral processions.

Cool thanks.

Just one last question, if you do not believe that there are any times when fighting is necessary - what would you propose to do if say the UK was invaded?

Reply 201

dn013

Cool thanks.

Just one last question, if you do not believe that there are any times when fighting is necessary - what would you propose to do if say the UK was invaded?

Personally, I'd run and hide and hope I survived by some method of pure luck and magic. :p:

I wouldn't have any overall solution, unfortunately, because sadly armed forces around the world are never going to disband. This is why I shall never be PM :p:

Reply 202

cpj1987

Personally, I'd run and hide and hope I survived by some method of pure luck and magic. :p:

I wouldn't have any overall solution, unfortunately, because sadly armed forces around the world are never going to disband. This is why I shall never be PM :p:

Haha you never know you could lead a revolution that disbands every military and terrorist organization in the world :smile:

- although that could put me out of a future job (although I am only considering joining the US army not actually in it).

Reply 203

thunder_chunky

19

It's not necessary, but it would be nice if the soldiers had support for whatever they are doing. It was really demoralizing for the American, Aussie, and other troops who were in Vietnam and who didn't get any support. Plus when they came home some were spat on and called "baby killers."

Some didn't care, but others were ostracized from society for quite some time because of this public opinion and stance.

So I say support them, and even if you don't respect what they are doing, respect that they are out there and that they are serving our country nonetheless and doing a job that at times isn't easy at all.

And also that they voluntarily signed up for it.

Reply 204

cpj1987, no offence, but for someone clearly so intelligent (with your 2:1 in TV Production), I find your comments/ beliefs incredibly naive, borderline ignorant. Indeed, there are good arguments for pacifism (and there're plenty of people in the forces who would like for us not to go to war, but they're willing to do it if need-be (which there IS, and always will be)), but you're not doing too well at converting anyone. Everything's going round in circles here, yet you still haven't responded to my previous question: how do we help those unable to help themself? Be an act of greater good, and prevent tyrants/ aggressors (and any other "immoral" people out there) from taking over, other than fighting them? You're so against war, and us going into it, yet you somehow believe that going over to Iraq/ Afghan and sitting round holding hands, hugging some trees, and asking said people nicely will prevent them from executing the atrocities they do? No chance.

War is always a requirement to suppress these people (no matter if they attack us or not, as I've mentioned before we're committed to NATO). In war we need people who are capable of doing these bad things you say, and in war I'd be happy to be one of those people; think what you will of me for that. And as to the "immoral" killing, as was mentioned above, the Geneva Convention dictates how we are able to kill people, in the least inhumane manner possible; hence, we no longer have cluster bombs. I bet those which we are fighting against don't care too much for the Geneva Convention, however... :wink:

Reply 205

djmarkmclachlan

cpj1987, no offence, but for someone clearly so intelligent (with your 2:1 in TV Production), I find your comments/ beliefs incredibly naive, borderline ignorant. Indeed, there are good arguments for pacifism (and there're plenty of people in the forces who would like for us not to go to war, but they're willing to do it if need-be (which there IS, and always will be)), but you're not doing too well at converting anyone. Everything's going round in circles here, yet you still haven't responded to my previous question: how do we help those unable to help themself? Be an act of greater good, and prevent tyrants/ aggressors (and any other "immoral" people out there) from taking over, other than fighting them? You're so against war, and us going into it, yet you somehow believe that going over to Iraq/ Afghan and sitting round holding hands, hugging some trees, and asking said people nicely will prevent them from executing the atrocities they do? No chance.

War is always a requirement to suppress these people (no matter if they attack us or not, as I've mentioned before we're committed to NATO). In war we need people who are capable of doing these bad things you say, and in war I'd be happy to be one of those people; think what you will of me for that. And as to the "immoral" killing, as was mentioned above, the Geneva Convention dictates how we are able to kill people, in the least inhumane manner possible; hence, we no longer have cluster bombs. I bet those which we are fighting against don't care too much for the Geneva Convention, however... :wink:

Firstly, I'm not TRYING to convert anyone. Why would I? I'm simply stating my own, personal, point of view.

I don't believe that sitting, holding hands will do anything, unfortunately, because there are armed forces and fighters all over the world, but that STILL doesn't mean I have to respect soldiers.

As I've said before, the third bold comment is where the Nazi mindset seems to come in for me - a uniform and a 'commitment' make you suddenly believe that you're not responsible for your actions - 'I was under orders'...

As for the fourth comment, thank you.

Reply 206

cpj1987

As I've said before, the third bold comment is where the Nazi mindset seems to come in for me - a uniform and a 'commitment' make you suddenly believe that you're not responsible for your actions - 'I was under orders'...

You obviously don't like the Nazis but you still refuse to say that we should have fought them....

Reply 207

dn013

You obviously don't like the Nazis but you still refuse to say that we should have fought them....

Exactly. I don't like them because they were killers, so why should I like other people who do the same?

Reply 208

cpj1987

Exactly. I don't like them because they were killers, so why should I like other people who do the same?

Because they were killers, soldiers are soldiers who abide by the rules of war - the Nazis did not.

Please just admit that World War II was a just war, ie removing the Nazis was a good cause for warfare.

Reply 209

dn013

Because they were killers, soldiers are soldiers who abide by the rules of war - the Nazis did not.

Please just admit that World War II was a just war, ie removing the Nazis was a good cause for warfare.

I don't believe there should BE 'rules of war' though. I don't believe killing is acceptable under ANY circumstance, and don't see why some 'rules' made by certain people should suddenly make killing ok.
The Nazis too were following 'rules' - I'm not saying the two are comparable in terms of their level, but the outcome in both cases is 'killing under order'.

Reply 210

cpj1987

I don't believe there should BE 'rules of war' though. I don't believe killing is acceptable under ANY circumstance, and don't see why some 'rules' made by certain people should suddenly make killing ok.
The Nazis too were following 'rules' - I'm not saying the two are comparable in terms of their level, but the outcome in both cases is 'killing under order'.

One is murder the other is 'just' homicide - with the potential outcome of saving lives. For example if the US, Britain and Russia had not defeated Nazi Germany many, many more people would have died than the death toll of WW2. Therefore killing to save another life is surely morally acceptable?

Reply 211

cpj1987

Firstly, I'm not TRYING to convert anyone. Why would I? I'm simply stating my own, personal, point of view.

I don't believe that sitting, holding hands will do anything, unfortunately, because there are armed forces and fighters all over the world, but that STILL doesn't mean I have to respect soldiers.

As I've said before, the third bold comment is where the Nazi mindset seems to come in for me - a uniform and a 'commitment' make you suddenly believe that you're not responsible for your actions - 'I was under orders'...

As for the fourth comment, thank you.

I'm struggling to see how you can hold it, you don't like wars, sure, but believing there's no requirement for them, as you've atleast indicated towards, is naive.

See, this is what makes me sick about this country - I'm fighting, for all intents and purposes, for people like you SO you can disrespect me. I'm willing to give everything up for this country and it's people and it's way of life, and you're not willing to respect that. You're more than happy to sit back and suck up your right to free speech, but not willing to condone and respect those who give you it. It's ******* disgusting, that's my opinion.

Responsible for my actions, indeed. Until we get to a state of peace like in the end of the Matrix, I feel that war will always be a necessary evil, and my taking part, though it may one day entail killing someone (though it's highly unlikely in my role), I'll be happy to do; for what I believe to be a greater good. I'm not willing to be one of the people who sit back and chat about it, I'm willing to do my part for the freedoms I have.

:top:

Reply 212

thunder_chunky

19

cpj1987

I don't believe there should BE 'rules of war' though. I don't believe killing is acceptable under ANY circumstance, and don't see why some 'rules' made by certain people should suddenly make killing ok.

So if you knew and were able to protect yourself through self defense, martial arts or something like that you still would not fight to protect yourself and the ones you care about and love because you are a pacifist?

Even the biggest pacifist at times has raised their fists to protect themselves, its human instinct.

Death and Killing might not be neccesary, but in many cases the cause and the motive is.

Reply 213

dn013

One is murder the other is 'just' homicide - with the potential outcome of saving lives. For example if the US, Britain and Russia had not defeated Nazi Germany many, many more people would have died than the death toll of WW2. Therefore killing to save another life is surely morally acceptable?

In my eyes, all deliberate killing is equal, regardless of motive.

Reply 214

cpj1987

I don't believe there should BE 'rules of war' though. I don't believe killing is acceptable under ANY circumstance, and don't see why some 'rules' made by certain people should suddenly make killing ok.
The Nazis too were following 'rules' - I'm not saying the two are comparable in terms of their level, but the outcome in both cases is 'killing under order'.

Yet you're willing to live your life based on "moral" rules? Rules also decided and written by certain people?

:top:

Reply 215

djmarkmclachlan

Yet you're willing to live your life based on "moral" rules? Rules also decided and written by certain people?

:top:

How do you mean? Which rules are those?

Reply 216

cpj1987

In my eyes, all deliberate killing is equal, regardless of motive.

So then you would agree that WW2 was the right course of action because fewer people died fighting the Nazis than if the Nazis had just continued to occupy Europe and persecute most of the peoples they controlled. And to be honest, I believe that killing a Nazi soldier firing a machine gun on D day is a bit different to a Nazi guard guiding my 4 year old relative (at the time he was 4 years old) into Theresienstadt concentration cam, where he starved to death.

edit - IMO if you cannot see a difference between the two then there is something wrong. Sorry about that its just my personal opinion.

Reply 217

cpj1987

How do you mean? Which rules are those?

Ten Commandments, maybe?

:top:

Reply 218

djmarkmclachlan

Ten Commandments, maybe?

:top:

I'm not religious.

Reply 219