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    (Original post by djmarkmclachlan)
    Aggressor being defined as someone who initiates hostilities, ie. bombs buses/ flies planes into towers of people/ drives cars into airports (don't know about you but that sounds like something I've read before), or perhaps I'm spitballing.

    I'm not here arguing about the war or getting into politics - it bores me. I'm arguing about peoples' opinions towards those, pawns, sent to fight it. You're right; we go where we're told, sometimes reluctantly - but it's what we signed to do - in belief of the greater good, though unfortunately an innocent family in Iraq/ Afghan, heck why not make it two, may perish.

    :top:
    Firstly, its a lot more than one or two innocent families that losing their lives. I think there is a minority of soldiers that are not completely good, and that makes it difficult for me to give a soldier respect just by the fact he/she is a soldier. This may just be the impression I get from war movies, although there may be an element of truth in them. All these allegations of torture as well, and stories about bombing a wedding etc. don't help.

    I can understand why many people think this war was unnecesary. Britain was not attacked before the war, the US was. If the war was a clear act of self-defence or in retaliation to an attack on us, then it would have a lot more support. I do think the majority are doing a good job.
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    I do respect the armed forces as a body, they do a job that very few others would do. Ive been to Rememberence Sunday in Liverpool as a first aid volunteer to help the representatives of the armed forces, while I wouldnt join the forces unless I had to, and obviously me standing on Lime Street for 4 hours isnt the same as making a life or death decision, but I show my respect. That partially shows my respect for soldiers. I think OP has made a sweeping generalisation.

    However, I dont agree with the wars currently going on based on the grounds of entry into it. I dont condone terrorism or anything related to it, but I don't think war was the answer. However, that's not the soldiers decision, that's the governments so we shouldnt be attacking soldiers for something they dont control.

    As for patriotism. It's more a cultural difference between us and America. Both love their countries, but Americans hang flags off of everything (trust me, go to any city in the US, you'll see loads of American flags), whereas Britain are a bit more subtle about it. Both are just different ways of showing it.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    Oh ye because the taliban were so great for human rights.
    Oh ye because Al Qaeda were so great for human rights.
    Oh ye because Saddam Hussein was so great for human rights.
    Oh ye because Milosevic was so great for human rights.
    Oh ye because Argentina was so great for human rights.
    Oh ye because the IRA was so great for human rights.
    Oh ye because Sierra Leone militias were so great for human rights.

    Oh ye the British army intentionally aims to kill and suppress as many civilians as possible just for shi*s and giggles :stupid:

    IRA?! - Reaction to the British Army's occupation and oppression of Ireland for hundreds of years!
    Sierra Leone militias - What after the British Army occupied Sierra Leone and then ****** off?
    Argentina?! - Ha Britain were defending their territory, they didn't give a **** about Argentinians human rights!

    And are you really that naive? The British Army are rushing out to save all the poor souls under abusive regimes? No gain for them at all? What about Zimbabwe then? Why wont Britain rush to the rescue? Or Congo? What about the empire? Who were they saving then? Oh yeah that's right, it was for ***** and giggles!

    You cannot swap human life for political gain. Its that simple.
    And soldiers ARE political pawns. They ARE murderers.
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    (Original post by isitjustme...)
    IRA?! - Reaction to the British Army's occupation and oppression of Ireland for hundreds of years!
    Sierra Leone militias - What after the British Army occupied Sierra Leone and then ****** off?
    Argentina?! - Ha Britain were defending their territory, they didn't give a **** about Argentinians human rights!

    And are you really that naive? The British Army are rushing out to save all the poor souls under abusive regimes? No gain for them at all? What about Zimbabwe then? Why wont Britain rush to the rescue? Or Congo? What about the empire? Who were they saving then? Oh yeah that's right, it was for ***** and giggles!

    You cannot swap human life for political gain. Its that simple.
    And soldiers ARE political pawns. They ARE murderers.
    You said that the british army suppresses human rights so I countered you buy stating the fact that in all of the past conflicts the British army has fought their enemies have actually had much, much, much worse human rights records. Most political gain comes from preserving human rights - FACT.

    Unfortunately your final statement showed your own naivety, and ultimately why your argument fails.
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    [QUOTE=35mm_]You clearly (and the other girl) have no comprehension of what war involves, and the reasons for it. Preventing other people from living? So, handing out school supplies to children, giving medical attention to wounded civilians, building vital infrastructure, is preventing others from living? Our soldiers go to war so that others can have a better quality of life. I am also a pacifist, in an ideal world there would be no war, but you're a ******* idiot if you're suggesting that our soldiers are filthy murderers. I mean, the Iraqis were so much better off when ol' Saddam was looking out for them with his plethora of chemical weapons.

    Yeah, and two wrongs don't make a right do they? If you kill someone, you're a murderer, weather you're part of the Taliban or the British Army. Its the same damn thing.

    And sorry, 'Our soldiers go to war so that others can have a better quality of life' and you're calling me a ******* idiot? That is so naive. Fair enough, soldiers in war zones do provide medical aid, is that after they've shot civilians caught in the crossfire?
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    (Original post by MichaelG)
    That was a sensible post until I read that last part. You live in such a bubble, its almost as if you rather be invaded than have to support British troops.
    Err, no.

    First of all, we're more at risk of homeland invasion if our troops are off in theatre in various locations around the world.

    Secondly, I will not 'support the troops' in absolutely everything they do, because contrary to your single-minded belief, not everything that the troops do is inherently good, inherently safe, inherently courageous and inherently justified.

    Thirdly, even if I did support the troops as a collective group, that does not mean I have to respect every single individual who compose that group.
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    (Original post by isitjustme...)
    You cannot swap human life for political gain. Its that simple.And soldiers ARE political pawns. They ARE murderers.
    :ditto:
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    (Original post by dn013)
    You said that the british army suppresses human rights so I countered you buy stating the fact that in all of the past conflicts the British army has fought their enemies have actually had much, much, much worse human rights records. Most political gain comes from preserving human rights - FACT.

    Unfortunately your final statement showed your own naivety, and ultimately why your argument fails.
    Ha, my argument fails? You've just attempted to suggest that the British Army are some kind of band of heroes going around saving everyone from their oppresses! How ridiculous! Oh they're abusing people! How wrong of them! Lets go kill them!
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    (Original post by dn013)
    Fail. You have neither facts nor evidence to back up your assertions.
    That doesn't make the statement wrong(not that I necessarily agree with the post). Evidence can be easily manipulated anyway.
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    I feel that the OP is making a sweeping statement. I respect the armed forces, they are putting themselves in grave danger everyday for the likes of me. I know that they signed up to protect Queen and country, but I could not do their job at all. Many have said that they cannot respect anyone who kills, but its a "Kill or be killed" situation. My hubby was in the RAF and never killed anyone nor saw front line action, but I know he would have killed if the need arose. Many of our soldiers are doing an extremely difficult job without the most basic of kit. I am behind our forces 100%!.Its thanks to them that I can live my life the way I choose.

    Oh and lets not forget those that served in both World Wars either.....is there any respect for them?. They also laid down their lives so that we can live today. The word "Respect" doesnt even cover my feelings for them.
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    (Original post by djmarkmclachlan)
    You're right; we go where we're told, sometimes reluctantly - but it's what we signed to do - in belief of the greater good, though unfortunately an innocent family in Iraq/ Afghan, heck why not make it two, may perish.
    So how are you any better than the Ugandan Army, the Chinese Army or the Russian Army ?

    You are just tools. Unthinking tools.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    Oh ye the British army intentionally aims to kill and suppress as many civilians as possible just for shi*s and giggles :stupid:
    The British Army forced the Boers into concentration camps and stood by while hundreds of thousands of Boers died.

    British atrocities are legion.
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    (Original post by isitjustme...)
    Ha, my argument fails? You've just attempted to suggest that the British Army are some kind of band of heroes going around saving everyone from their oppresses! How ridiculous! Oh they're abusing people! How wrong of them! Lets go kill them!
    I didn't say anything of the kind, I was merely pointing out the fact that in most of the past wars Britain has fought, Britain's enemy has been the one suppressing human rights.

    I was also pointing out your naivety in thinking that the British army only goes anywhere to kill people. Any occupying force is far more successful when it works with civilians - and the British army has realized this. The British army is engaged in numerous community service ventures - such as building schools and setting up medicine - in order to win over hearts and minds.

    The very fact that you avoid the obvious facts that Iraq is now a democracy, when under Saddam the civilian population was subjected to a vicious totalitarian dicatator (I am not saying that I am in favor of the war I am just stating the obvious) shows your failures.

    You can say that the British army are 'murderers' but you do not have any evidence to suggest that the British army has targeted innocent civilians - and that is because it has not.
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    (Original post by Annie72)
    My hubby was in the RAF
    So an objective viewpoint then
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    I couldn't give two ***** about british soldiers because they don't really give a **** about me nor are they fighting for me.. but somebody needs to destroy them taliban scum i guess.
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    (Original post by flugestuge)
    The British Army forced the Boers into concentration camps and stood by while hundreds of thousands of Boers died.

    British atrocities are legion.
    The Romans also persecuted many different ethnic minorities - that does not say anything about modern Italians.

    Similarly, can you name any British soldiers who are in the modern British military and who served in the Boer War? No because the Boer war occurred over a hundred years ago.

    The thing in bold makes about as much sense as your argument does, not very much at all - so please clarify that point, thank you.
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    (Original post by isitjustme...)
    So an objective viewpoint then
    My relationship with the armed forces doesnt even come in to it. I would still support them even if I wasnt married to an ex member of them.
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    (Original post by _Ravi_)
    That doesn't make the statement wrong(not that I necessarily agree with the post). Evidence can be easily manipulated anyway.
    Evidence can be manipulated, but making assertions without any proof is just ********.
    I could say that you have three hands, I know you have three hands because I just know you do - anyone who argues against me is naive. You see that is complete ******** just like his argument.
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    (Original post by PAPAdawg)
    it makes me embarrassed to be from here.

    in america they get this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3zw6NUF60

    and huge respect from the public. in this country we get a handful of people actually can be assed to go and stand on the side of the road for 10 minutes and a load of disrespectful idiots who couldnt give 2 *****. the americans are, imo, a far better nation because of this
    1. Soldiers signed up to be soldiers.

    2. Soldiers get paid, i.e are mercenaries, paid to kill and massive numbers of people they kill are innocent civilians. There have been roughly 30,000 civilian causalities in Afghanistan and 100,000 in Iraq.

    I don't value British lives above Iraqi lives, therefore the Iraq war has to have stopped at least 100,000 deaths from 'terrorist attacks', when really it has created more 'terrorists' from families that had their children killed and a lot terrorists are moving east into Pakistann and India anyway (not that we know all the honest details, but from what we do know...)

    Also national boundaries are becoming obsolete. Patriotism is antiquated and although being cute, is not the way forward to inevitable global government (give it 50 years). Amerians are worse because of Patriotism, not better. Patriotism is basically "my county is better than yours and so are the people living in it". I guess they have a better functioning propaganda system.

    So, my question to you is:

    Why support people paid to murder?
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    Err, no.

    First of all, we're more at risk of homeland invasion if our troops are off in theatre in various locations around the world.

    Secondly, I will not 'support the troops' in absolutely everything they do, because contrary to your single-minded belief, not everything that the troops do is inherently good, inherently safe, inherently courageous and inherently justified.

    Thirdly, even if I did support the troops as a collective group, that does not mean I have to respect every single individual who compose that group.
    Are you actually serious? Homeland troops are fighting around the world so the threat doesn't get a chance to arrive at our little island.

    You know i'm glad my great uncle died fighting in WW2, so you could spout your selfish views on an internet forum.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think, because people out there are willing to risk their lives so you can continue to live freely and say whatever you think is right.

    I don't blame you for thinking like that, i mean its not as if you can even begin to comprehend the commitment soldiers have to go through day in and day out. At least I appreciate and donate to the sacrifices individuals make, families make, friends make. Can you say you contribute anything as phenomenal as what our British troops are committing? I think it would be a good idea if you should research some war victim charities.
 
 
 
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