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    (Original post by ScotlandStandUp)
    Would you still be calling it terrorism if you lived in Ireland during the early 1900's? Same applies to the Taliban, imagine if your country was invaded, wouldn't you fight to free your country?

    In both cases both countries have been invaded and taken over, I'll admit Ireland was by far the worst however a staggering 1 million Iraqis have died during this conflict so far. These "terrorists" are simply patriots, fighting for their country.

    The terrorists in both of these cases would be the Brits and the Americans, as they both illegally invaded each country and are now saying 'we're bringing the war to them', the terrorists(patriots) are here and we'll kill them. Even though there is no link whatsoever between the Taliban and Saddam.
    Yes I would, probably, unless it got me into danger :P And yes I would probably fight, but I wouldn't fight with terrorism. I am no "patriot" because I know no country is "greater" than any other. I would only fight to keep my part of humanity free.

    But why does my feeling about fighting for things matter? I merely said that many of (obviously not all, by far) the things that the IRA do, say for example the bombing in Bournemouth, are often terrorism. Many (not all of course) of the things that Jihadis do are terrorism. And although it is indeed hard to see why, but in both cases many parts of it can be brought down to religion in some form, as well as patriotism as you quite rightly say.
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    It's more national self-determination than patriotism and it's not really about religion that much, either.
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    (Original post by bennh)
    Yes I would, probably, unless it got me into danger :P And yes I would probably fight, but I wouldn't fight with terrorism. I am no "patriot" because I know no country is "greater" than any other. I would only fight to keep my part of humanity free.

    But why does my feeling about fighting for things matter? I merely said that many of (obviously not all, by far) the things that the IRA do, say for example the bombing in Bournemouth, are often terrorism. Many (not all of course) of the things that Jihadis do are terrorism. And although it is indeed hard to see why, but in both cases many parts of it can be brought down to religion in some form, as well as patriotism as you quite rightly say.
    Being a patriot doesn't mean you believe your country is the best in the world, it simply means that you're proud and will die for your country

    As for the acts of terrorism they were conducted because speaking about it won't solve the problem, the British have no realised that and NI now has their own parliament.
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    (Original post by ScotlandStandUp)
    Being a patriot doesn't mean you believe your country is the best in the world, it simply means that you're proud and will die for your country

    As for the acts of terrorism they were conducted because speaking about it won't solve the problem, the British have no realised that and NI now has their own parliament.

    I didn't say that patriotism is that. But what I would say is that "dying for your country" just because it's your country is something I would never do. I also do not call myself a patriot for that reason. I would not always support my country even if it was wrong, that is blind patriotism.

    And what I mean to say about things the IRA doing often being down to religious terrorism is thus: take for example the conflict over segregation of schools due to Catholicism and Protestantism. If the IRA got involved and attacked buildings or people or whatever belonging to a different sect, it is not referred to as what it is. If a Muslim group attacked a school because it allowed girls to be educated, it is branded as Islamic Terrorism.

    Obviously the IRA do a lot more of the kind of thing we see that doesn't involve religion, like the bombings in England. That's not disputed.



    Anyway back to the topic of the thread, abut people's views of the IRA:
    Over-zealous
    Blindly patriotic
    Aggressive and inhumane
    Embarrassment to humanity

    Isn't that just nice ^^
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    (Original post by fatal)
    They exist?
    Jack Higgins books have the protagonist as an ex-IRA fighter but even his enemies sound like cool villains.

    I haven't read much about the IRA to be honest, but I don't like their methods to say the least.
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    (Original post by ScotlandStandUp)
    What are your views on the IRA, a group many have branded to be terrorists, yet others heroes. A group who liberated Ireland from British rule and attempted to do the same thing to Northern Ireland, after the parliament opt-out of the newly founded Irish state. A group who terrorised England and the Middle East for 30 odd years, by strategically bombing key areas.

    Do you support their dream to see the island or Ireland re-united as it was before? Or do you consider the residents of Northern Ireland "British" and therefore see the IRA as cold blooded savages who should be hanged if the death penalty were still in place?
    In my post ill refer to the ira as that of the provisional ira as it was their actions and agenda which most, group under as ira.

    i consider the ira originally that of a pressure group and primarily freedom fighters.

    in my opinion due to the lack of civil rights and civl liberties that the nationalist catholic community in northern ireland experienced in the years following partition, and then the failings of the civil rights movement. their was a need for tougher action. just because someone was born into the unionist protestant community, why should they have been allowed preferential rights and liberties, where is the democracy when the government is allowed to gerrymander votes etc.

    In 1968 those marching for civil rights under the banner of The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association were met with a backlash of violence from their own police force and civil autorities. Angering catholics, then came the 69 riots where the ruc aided and ignored the actions of loyalists. causing widespread disorder and ended up in the death of a 9 year old child and catholic families being burnt out of their homes in the falls and shortstrand by loyalist mobs.

    the catholic community were crying out for help, they were being treated as second class citizens, when they tried to demonstrate they were oppressed when they went to the polls, they didnt have a say as the british government had gerrymandered the vote.

    My people couldn't demonstrate, they couldn't ask for political help. the community had even criticised the ira for doing nothing which saw the split which brought about the pira. the only thing left was to fight for their rights, which rightly or wrongly worked! EQUALITY was born!

    However i must reiterate, their was a time for fighting, a time for violence. that time has been n gone. we now have equality, we now have representation, we now have a police force. the actions of the splinter RIRA and CIRA must be condemned and is barbaric terrorism!
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    I may have a unique point of view (I may not) my Mother British Protestant my Dad Irish-Catholic, and I have lived in London all my life.

    My viewpoint is this that the Irish Republican Army through Micheal Collins sought the independance of Ireland and achieved the freedom of 24 Irish counties. The Six North-Eastern Counties were then partioned and Irish Cartholics continued to be systimatically surpressed. Then through armed struggle the Provos managed to push Catholic rights on to the agenda until Protestants and Catholics were made equal in the GFA. British involvement in Ireland will one day cease but not through violence. I hope the suits remain on and the banaclavas are banished to the history books.
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    (Original post by LALA LAND)
    the catholic community were crying out for help, they were being treated as second class citizens, when they tried to demonstrate they were oppressed when they went to the polls, they didnt have a say as the british government had gerrymandered the vote.
    It was the unionist Stormont government rather than the British government in Westminster that partook in gerrymandering but I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

    And I'm from a protestant background.
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    (Original post by Eric Arthur)
    It was the unionist Stormont government rather than the British government in Westminster that partook in gerrymandering but I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

    And I'm from a protestant background.
    sorry about that i should have been mroe precise and its good to hear from an openminded individual on such a controversial topic!
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    (Original post by Arrogant Git)
    Yes, and the Irish Free State fought a Civil War against the IRA over whether to accept the Anglo Irish treaty. The free state won and what became the Irish Republic was formed. After the war, Fianna Fail was formed to oppose Sinn Fein and the IRA and this led most of the anti-treaty IRA to support de Valera and Fianna Fail rather than the IRA. It carried on as a Socialist organisation to oppose the fascist blueshirts (now Fine Gail) and both were banned in the 1940s.
    Your having a laugh Fianna Fail - Socialist, lol , the Archbishop McDaid loving, big builder, light regulation banking, Galway Races party more like.

    The Blueshirts where more idiots than facists, the group was founded to protect Cumann na nGaedhael meetings from attacks from the IRA, when DeValera refused to allow the Gardai or National Army protect his political opponents. The Blueshirts where disbanded and some ex-members + members of several other parties such as the National Centre Party and Cumann na nGaedhael joined together to form Fine Gael, which was a central party and has spent large periods as a Social Democratic party/Centre Right Party.
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    (Original post by ScotlandStandUp)
    Would you still be calling it terrorism if you lived in Ireland during the early 1900's? Same applies to the Taliban, imagine if your country was invaded, wouldn't you fight to free your country?
    The problem is that the majority of Afghans don't support the Taliban according to polls. In fact the Taliban are virtually all Pastun and they belong to one part of Afghanistan.
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    I do not agree with the IRA these days. We are never going to have 'Eire 32' and I think that the car bombs and terrorist attacks in England were absolutely despicable and pointless. As are the UVF and UDA etc. However, I do agree with the IRA's predecessors- Ribbonmen, Fenians and the IRB. All of which were violent, but I think it was a neccessary violence, as the Republic was born from violence. Unfortunate, and extreme, but neccessary.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    I do not agree with the IRA these days. We are never going to have 'Eire 32' and I think that the car bombs and terrorist attacks in England were absolutely despicable and pointless. As are the UVF and UDA etc. However, I do agree with the IRA's predecessors- Ribbonmen, Fenians and the IRB. All of which were violent, but I think it was a neccessary violence, as the Republic was born from violence. Unfortunate, and extreme, but neccessary.
    Interesting how you say we will never have a united Ireland, when the general concensus is that we will eventually have a united Ireland.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Interesting how you say we will never have a united Ireland, when the general concensus is that we will eventually have a united Ireland.


    It isn't the general concensus here. Why do you think that? There's an awful lot of people who want to remain in the Union and even if they are slightly in the minority such a referendum would never be held in the first place never mind passed. I personally think that there is too much division and bitterness and that if we were to have a United Ireland it has been too long, they are both too entrenched. Definitely not alone in thinking that. If you want to get more realistic about it - different economy, different currency, different laws, different constitution, different rights ie. workplace- differerent salaries wage structures etc, different primary school system, secondary school system, university system...also would a United Ireland stand under the tricolour or have a new flag? A United Ireland really would have wanted to take place before the Troubles. The unbelievable amount of trouble and problems it would create now..there would be uproar.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    It isn't the general concensus here. Why do you think that? There's an awful lot of people who want to remain in the Union and even if they are slightly in the minority such a referendum would never be held in the first place never mind passed. I personally think that there is too much division and bitterness and that if we were to have a United Ireland it has been too long, they are both too entrenched. Definitely not alone in thinking that. If you want to get more realistic about it - different economy, different currency, different laws, different constitution, different rights ie. workplace- differerent salaries wage structures etc, different primary school system, secondary school system, university system...also would a United Ireland stand under the tricolour or have a new flag? A United Ireland really would have wanted to take place before the Troubles.
    A united Ireland did want to happen before the Troubles, that's one of the many reasons why the Troubles took place. You also forget that Catholics, and thus Nationalists, had very little say before the Troubles in regards to how NI was run. They had almost no political power.

    It is the general concensus where I'm from, and that's the Unionist stronghold of Down. To bring it back to religion, Catholics tend to have more children, they also tend to vote Nationalist. Most people know it's going to happen and this is proven year on year as Sinn Fein become more popular in the Six Counties. Yes, the logistics of it will be somewhat difficult, but the laws and constitution aren't that different; rights aren't that different; salaries and wages are general private sector so they can't do so much damage to that; public sector pay will be affected but not overly; the flag is hardly that much of an issue; school systems are always being changed.. The biggest problems are the Euro, Gaelic and the taxes. school systems are always being changed.

    You also have the fact that whilst the South isn't vocal about it, it still wants a united Ireland as well. They are less passionate about it than the Six Counties, but they also form a large contingent in the various IRA groups.
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    (Original post by cathesaurusrex)
    YES!!! When will we be free of this plague of Southerners!

    Those pesky Donegal 'southerners'!

    Maybe when the prices bear some relation on each other. Euro prices are insane. Nothing worse than seeing £65 on a pair of Topshop shoes..and then seeing €99. And they're not the only ones on crack. I love it when Northern Irish people buy stuff where I work (Dunnes) and then say it's a few pounds cheaper up there....yeah so why did you come here to pay euro prices?

    Back on topic, it is absolutely hilarious the amount of people who write 'Up the Ra' on walls and mutter '800 years' but have little or no knowledge of Irish history.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    A united Ireland did want to happen before the Troubles, that's one of the many reasons why the Troubles took place. You also forget that Catholics, and thus Nationalists, had very little say before the Troubles in regards to how NI was run. They had almost no political power.

    It is the general concensus where I'm from, and that's the Unionist stronghold of Down. To bring it back to religion, Catholics tend to have more children, they also tend to vote Nationalist. Most people know it's going to happen and this is proven year on year as Sinn Fein become more popular in the Six Counties. Yes, the logistics of it will be somewhat difficult, but the laws and constitution aren't that different; rights aren't that different; salaries and wages are general private sector so they can't do so much damage to that; public sector pay will be affected but not overly; the flag is hardly that much of an issue; school systems are always being changed.. The biggest problems are the Euro, Gaelic and the taxes. school systems are always being changed.

    You also have the fact that whilst the South isn't vocal about it, it still wants a united Ireland as well. They are less passionate about it than the Six Counties, but they also form a large contingent in the various IRA groups.

    But how would it come about? Who'd propose a United Ireland? The general concensus here is indifference to the North..except for the handy sterling prices. Yes there are Nationalists and unfortunately, scum, but they are by no means any sort of majority or even large contingent of the republic as a whole. The 'Love Ulster' parade was interesting, the majority said 'let them. who cares' and the rest said 'how dare they march down O Connell Street..blah' we know what happened. Nobody leaped to say yes, we should embrace the North or even yes good on them. I don't think the republic is bothered about the status of the North. Not to sound mean or anything, but economically it would probably be a disaster right now. I would like to see a United Ireland but I'm almost 100% certain I never will. It might be that 70% of the North want to be part of the Republic but I don't think it would get further than wanting. I don't agree that details like those would be easily switched, they're the kind of things such an idea would end up getting bogged down in, particularly such an inept government as ours.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    But how would it come about? Who'd propose a United Ireland? The general concensus here is indifference to the North..except for the handy sterling prices. Yes there are Nationalists and unfortunately, scum, but they are by no means any sort of majority or even large contingent of the republic as a whole. The 'Love Ulster' parade was interesting, the majority said 'let them. who cares' and the rest said 'how dare they march down O Connell Street..blah' we know what happened. Nobody leaped to say yes, we should embrace the North or even yes good on them. I don't think the republic is bothered about the status of the North. Not to sound mean or anything, but economically it would probably be a disaster right now. I would like to see a United Ireland but I'm almost 100% certain I never will. It might be that 70% of the North want to be part of the Republic but I don't think it would get further than wanting. I don't agree that details like those would be easily switched, they're the kind of things such an idea would end up getting bogged down in, particularly such an inept government as ours.
    Ummm, no offence, but check Sinn Fein's mandate. A vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for a united Ireland.
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    And how many people vote for Sinn Fein? You might have a point if it was the policy of say, Fine Gael or Labour who both stand a chance of actually forming a government in the next twenty years.
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    And how many people vote for Sinn Fein? You might have a point if it was the policy of say, Fine Gael or Labour who both stand a chance of actually forming a government in the next twenty years.
    Sinn Fein are the second largest party in Northern Ireland? They are only a few seats behind the DUP. Martin McGuinness is our Deputy First Minister. If they win the next election, which is a possibility, then Northern Ireland will have voted for unification with Ireland.

    You should really research things before you enter a debate.
 
 
 
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