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    (Original post by a_t)
    PAISLEY SAYS NO!!!

    Towards the end did one of the guys behind the pope do a nazi salute :eyeball: around the 1.10 mark
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    We were granted that right in the Act of Partition, 1921, and the Irish Constitution. The Good Friday Agreement isn't that new an agreement. It just reiterates what's been said before: majority of nationalists in government, NI goes to the South, otherwise it stays.
    you picking on me deliberately? :p: its 2 am ffs give me a break.

    anyhow, i only know that it said it in the GFA so thats what i thought...
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    (Original post by roryq)
    you picking on me deliberately? :p: its 2 am ffs give me a break.

    anyhow, i only know that it said it in the GFA so thats what i thought...
    Not picking on you on purpose, you're just making the biggest errors at the moment. :p: I like our side to win these debates, so I shore up any holes we've got going, regardless. Just be thankful Lib isn't here. He's a much better debater in this area than most. I love arguing with him over NI.
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    i dont like arguing over ni, just like talking ***** as if i know something:cool:
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    (Original post by sron)
    I'd like to see a united Ireland for no other reason than to know Ian Paisley would die an extremely unhappy death.
    Ian Paisley was being a bit rude there.
    Could he not have waited till the pope had finished before he declared him an antichrist?
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Utter ********. The country was split for purely selfish and undemocratic reasons. The Act of Partition should never have been allowed to happen, it went against the mandate of the British Government to uphold democracy, ie. majority rule and the majority of a whole Ireland in 1921 wanted a United Ireland under Irish rule. The Unionists only had a majority in Down and Antrim, which remains to this day as Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone are generally Nationalist now as then.
    ”MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN, We, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Senators and Commons of Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, having learnt of the passing of the Irish Free State Constitution Act, 1922, being the Act of Parliament for the ratification of the Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland, do, by this humble Address, pray your Majesty that the powers of the Parliament and Government of the Irish Free State shall no longer extend to Northern Ireland.”
    The people of Northern Ireland wanted to stay part of our country, as British citizens it was our government's responsibility to adhere to their wishes, just as it was to adhere to the wishes of the Southern Irish to rule themselves, as much as I personally dislike the seperation of Ireland from the UK.

    And Unionism wasn't just confined to the North East there were significant pockets of it across the country, all of which felt let down when the South went it's seperate way to the United Kingdom. Democracy is all fine and good but when a significant minority will be discriminated against and will be severely affected by such a decision, you can't use the majority's vote as the bedrock of a piece of legislation. The situation of the minority must be given some prominence also.

    If you think the Irish Civil War was bad, imagine the bloodbath it would have been if the Unionists in the North had been forced into a nation they absolutely despised.
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    I live in Northern Ireland. I, and 90% of my friends, couldn't give a **** whether there is a united Ireland or not. It won't affect me in any significant way at all.
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    So all this republican propaganda about a United Ireland and how the English have split a country in two is rubbish.
    Thats pretty indisputable actually
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    We were granted that right in the Act of Partition, 1921, and the Irish Constitution. The Good Friday Agreement isn't that new an agreement. It just reiterates what's been said before: majority of nationalists in government, NI goes to the South, otherwise it stays.
    It says nothing of the sort, indeed one of it's terms is the following:

    abolition of the Republic's territorial claim to Northern Ireland via the modification of Articles 2 and 3 of its constitution. As a result, the territorial claim which had subsisted since 29 December 1937 was dropped on 2 December 1999;[4]
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    The High Kings, I think? (my gaelige is a little rusty :P)

    I've heard of them, as far as my historical knowledge of them goes, they were pretty much on the whole just symbolic figures like the Holy Roman Emperors after the Peace of Westphalia. They were symbolically the premier kings but they only really held only power in their own territories while the rest of the lower kings continued their internecine squabbles and armed disputes.

    I wouldn't consider an Ireland fractured into numerous competitive and on often occasions fighting factions a unified Ireland, symbolic High King or not.

    And yes Northern Ireland makes less money than the UK puts into it, basically English taxes support it as it stands.
    Haha very well translated. I was under the impression that at the Celts' peak these people actually had significant power (and, incidentally, there were plenty of extremely strong HREs...even if that was due to their control of other territories!). Perhaps I was mistaken. However, Ireland did at least all speak one language. This is something, for example, Spain had not achieved when unified and still has not achieved, and is a key cause of the sepratist movements. I would suggest that such a homogenity of language and religion (and, by the time of the Brits' lovely homecoming, as it were, Catholicism) implies a greater unity than you would like to think. What of the four ancient provinces? The Brits couldn't even be bothered to stick to the map and take the entirity of Ulster in 1948. Honestly!
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    Ulster Loyalists largely view Southerners and Catholics in the North as one and the same people. Theres something in the air up there!
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    The people of Northern Ireland wanted to stay part of our country, as British citizens it was our government's responsibility to adhere to their wishes, just as it was to adhere to the wishes of the Southern Irish to rule themselves, as much as I personally dislike the seperation of Ireland from the UK.

    And Unionism wasn't just confined to the North East there were significant pockets of it across the country, all of which felt let down when the South went it's seperate way to the United Kingdom. Democracy is all fine and good but when a significant minority will be discriminated against and will be severely affected by such a decision, you can't use the majority's vote as the bedrock of a piece of legislation. The situation of the minority must be given some prominence also.

    If you think the Irish Civil War was bad, imagine the bloodbath it would have been if the Unionists in the North had been forced into a nation they absolutely despised.
    What discrimination, though? It never happened. In fact, NI went on to further discriminate against Catholics, which in turn led to the Troubles. This myth about Catholic discrimination towards Protestants really has to stop. It's a myth, a fallacy, a pile of crap conjured by the scared Ulster Unionists to use religious feeling to support their cause. Before Edward Carson, Irish rule was not connected to an idea of sectarianism. He coined the phrase "Home rule is Rome rule" and he brought religion into the equation.

    In regards to the population of Ulster alone, let alone Ireland, the number of Unionists weren't even a majority. It was not significant enough at all. Utter tripe. They were only granted leave to further their aims because the Tories wanted to use them against the Liberals in power.

    You realise that that decree given by the Northern Irish was given by an Protestant Unionist Stormont led by Lord Craigavon? This Assembly then went on to jerry-mander the voting lines so as to rob Catholics of any voting power. They went on to create laws which banned Catholics from work, housing, etc. Of course that decree is going to show Northern Ireland wanted to be part of the UK, it was given by Unionists. Use your ******* head next time you quote a dubious source.

    Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone did not want to be part of NI. They said so during the Border Committee, they were ignored. Down and Antrim were the only two definitive Unionist territories in the area. Armagh changes almost yearly.

    Furthermore, Sinn Fein representatives went to the Paris Peace Conference to ask for the right for an all Ireland plebicite and were refused entry because the Brits inside ordered it.

    Unionists and their sympathisers use that bloodbath argument, it doesn't stick. There was a civil war in Ireland anyway. We got the Troubles. We got the PIRA and the CIRA and the RIRA. There was a huge ******* bloodbath. At least if it had happened back then it would've been all but decisive, unlike the way it is now.


    (Original post by niall c)
    Haha very well translated. I was under the impression that at the Celts' peak these people actually had significant power (and, incidentally, there were plenty of extremely strong HREs...even if that was due to their control of other territories!). Perhaps I was mistaken. However, Ireland did at least all speak one language. This is something, for example, Spain had not achieved when unified and still has not achieved, and is a key cause of the sepratist movements. I would suggest that such a homogenity of language and religion (and, by the time of the Brits' lovely homecoming, as it were, Catholicism) implies a greater unity than you would like to think. What of the four ancient provinces? The Brits couldn't even be bothered to stick to the map and take the entirity of Ulster in 1948. Honestly!
    The High Kings, by the end of the Viking Era, did have huge power. For example, Brian Borama and Mael Sechnaill were the two most powerful men in Ireland in the late 10th and early 11th centuries and they had a lot of power between them. Brian Borama was celebrated in the Icelandic Sagas, for Christ's sake.

    Oh, and there were 5 ancient provinces. The Irish term for what Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connaught translates originally as "fifth". The other province, now lost, which was consisted of Meath, West Meath and Longford back in the day.


    (Original post by ajp100688)
    It says nothing of the sort, indeed one of it's terms is the following:
    Gods, you are retarded. Yes, we've already asserted somewhere else that the GFA holds that the Irish Government renounced its official claim to Northern Ireland. However, the GFA also states that in the eventuality that a party, such as Sinn Fein, who hold the support of the majority of Northern Ireland and desire a United Ireland as part of the political mandate, Northern Ireland will be returned to Ireland. Do you really think Sinn Fein would have agreed to the GFA if it stopped them completely from unification with the South?!
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    To be perfectly honest, I don't really care at this stage if there's a united Ireland. The idea is nice in theory, but the implementation would be far too painful and divisive for it ever to really happen.

    Our economy's ****** enough anyway without having the NI sinkhole draining it further, but the border prices would be nice to have down here!
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    I've yet to see a good, objective reason within this thread.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone did not want to be part of NI. They said so during the Border Committee, they were ignored.
    This amazes me, that a county could profusely ask not to be part of a country, and yet still be made part of that country. As for Armagh, some of the most irish people in ireland are there, it would be ridiculous to ask them to accept being called british
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    They're entirely entitled to choose for themselves.

    The English deserve no say in what the Northern Irish decide to do with themselves- the same extending to the Scottish and Welsh.

    Englishmen moaning about "The UK Being Alright, really!" come across as sour old gits- whether it's "Nice" and "Patriotic" or not is immaterial- it's a question of who they elect to be led by, and what they wish to call themselves as a nation. England shouldn't even get a look in.

    I'm pro-Dissembling the Union full stop if the people in each constituent country decide it's what they want.

    Judging by the Loyalist faction's history, I'd say that a United Ireland would probably be beneficial. The UK could happily disown the Loyalists under Irish jurisdiction who want to remain part of the Union, and the absurd "Keep Ulster Protestant" sentiment would become a moot point.

    Ireland passes laws to protect equality, people integrate. So long as the peace is kept, it should defuse the situation considerably better than the hideous standoff we have now.
    Yet, so long as a majority of each county elects to remain part of the UK, the option's off the table.
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    (Original post by indigoblue)
    This amazes me, that a county could profusely ask not to be part of a country, and yet still be made part of that country. As for Armagh, some of the most irish people in ireland are there, it would be ridiculous to ask them to accept being called british
    Michael Collins' original plan was to use the Border Committee to tank NI before it got off the ground by removing those three and possibly Armagh, leaving the two/three country country nonviable financially, forcing them to return to the South.

    Obviously he was killed before he got the chance and the rest is history. Those on the Border Committee just weren't strong willed enough or charismatic enough for it.
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    (Original post by WrongWayUp)
    I've recently been doing some research into Irish history, and this question seems to arise frequently. I've noticed the theme of nationalism coming up fairly often, but I was wondering if there were any other reasons. What are your reasons for wanting an Ireland that is completely united?
    Firstly as any nationalist would say i believe i have a right to self-determination, freedom and independence. but in relation to the issue in question:
    The history of british oppression towards my community.
    The majority of people on the Island of Ireland are in favour.
    In a United Ireland my vote would count for something and that of unionists, who within the british system only represent 2% of the population and cannot hope to have any significant say in the direction of their own affairs.
    GFA set up all ireland institutions that proved to work
    Im against british foreign policy
    Im against the monarchy

    its late couldnt b assed listin nemore
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    I'm against this on the basis that I will need to buy a new world map :hmmm:

    I lack the imagination to just pretend that the two parts are the same colour.
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    So my IRA thread isn't good enough eh? :awesome:
 
 
 
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