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    why is northern ireland such a 'drain on resources'?
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    (Original post by sron)
    I'd like to see a united Ireland for no other reason than to know Ian Paisley would die an extremely unhappy death.
    that would be funny ...Ian Paisley would go crazy lol
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Anyway, the Nationalist hope for out-birthing the Protestants really sweeps their Nationalism into new and yet more vile territory: ethno-nationalism.
    are hopes dont simply lie on the oul grounds of ethnicity and the right to self determination but, which sinn fein are currently on a new campaign for, is the hearts and minds of the unionist community and showing them that they are better of in a united ireland and in turn can have a greater voice and representation. unionists will not be treated as the nationalists were treated by the british. just look at the decline of southern unionism!
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    (Original post by nikki-77)
    i dont care, ireland is ireland, end of. :cool:
    And this in one sentence is the summary of the thoughts of most Republic Irish and is why their demand for One Ireland is so stupid. Theres no logic or thought behind it, no intelligence shown, just an ignorant dogmatic policy.
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    And this in one sentence is the summary of the thoughts of most Republic Irish and is why their demand for One Ireland is so stupid. Theres no logic or thought behind it, no intelligence shown, just an ignorant dogmatic policy.
    your not even from ireland, your thoughts aren't and won't be considered in this conversation. hence why i try to ignore what you say :p:

    p.s.. i am NOT from the republic!
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    (Original post by nikki-77)
    your not even from ireland, your thoughts aren't and won't be considered in this conversation. hence why i try to ignore what you say :p:

    p.s.. i am NOT from the republic!
    I meant Republican*

    And I'm British, incase you didn't notice the North of Ireland is British and I'm as entitled to my view on the subject as you are.
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    I meant Republican*

    And I'm British, incase you didn't notice the North of Ireland is British and I'm as entitled to my view on the subject as you are.
    HAHA... err err.. WRONG.

    northern ireland is part of the UK, not Britain.

    go over your geography, silly :p:

    http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch...in/britain.htm
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    (Original post by nikki-77)
    HAHA... err err.. WRONG.

    northern ireland is part of the UK, not Britain.

    go over your geography, silly :p:

    http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch...in/britain.htm
    Erm, if you're from the United Kingdom you're British. Anything belonging to the United Kingdom is also classified as British. The people that live in Northern Ireland are British citizens and Northern Ireland is British land.

    Learn your nomenclature.
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    Because Irish boys make my pants go wet :coma:
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    Erm, if you're from the United Kingdom you're British. Anything belonging to the United Kingdom is also classified as British. The people that live in Northern Ireland are British citizens and Northern Ireland is British land.

    Learn your nomenclature.
    haha you couldn't be so wrong! im irish, born and bred, passports irish, play all the irish sports, eat irish food, talk fluent in irish, HELL yeah i couldnt be any more irish :p: good evening.
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    Not all nationalists want a United Ireland! Yes the diehard pricks who abuse anyone they hear with an English accent and know the lyrics to all of the rebel songs. I HATE republicans/nationalists who have absolutely NO Irish (ie. language). It's so hypocritical! (They do have Tiocfaidh ár lá of course). Nor are they ever well up on Irish history even the recent 100 years that they're actually most concerned with. I myself am intensely proud of my country, study Irish (and by default, British) history in uni and condemn British interference in Ireland. But I'm not a die-hard and I don't want a United Ireland. It would be nice, but it's WAY too far gone, it really is a different country. Different currency, different economy, completely different education system, uni entry system, VAT, tax rates, utilities, councils, work practices etc. Although NI is a drain on resources, it's doing far better than us retail-wise, apart from anything else- the obvious opposition and violence- it really would screw both countries over recession-wise.
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    Not a single person in England cares what happens with Ireland. All theyve given us is a large ship which lasted about 2 minutes.
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    (Original post by ajp100688)
    And this in one sentence is the summary of the thoughts of most Republic Irish and is why their demand for One Ireland is so stupid. Theres no logic or thought behind it, no intelligence shown, just an ignorant dogmatic policy.
    Actually, if you'll notice, many of us have come up with completely logical arguments. The partition was undemocratic, illegal, arbitrary, etc. We've been through all of this before.

    On your point about Home Rule, it's true that there were reasons for it not getting there, I won't deny it. However, Gladstone and the Liberals never really took it too seriously, that's what I meant by "shelving". Perhaps an inaccurate term, but to the Irish at the time it would certainly have looked like shelving.

    Furthermore, at the time, Ireland was a single, cohesive political unit and should have been dealt as such. Much like Lib claims we should treat the UK.


    (Original post by ajp100688)
    Finally in '14 we managed to pass a bill thanks mainly to having broken the power of the House of Lords, WW1, which was a pretty big deal halted the passage of the bill. If the Irish had been content to wait it out and considering there was a massive war going on, it's not such an unreasonable demand then in '19 or '20 we'd have passed the bill and we'd have seen a devolved united Ireland within the UK. Unfortunately they didn't and we had the Easter Rebellion.

    We (the British) cocked up majorly over the Easter Rebellion and rather than dealing with it sensibly, ending up making martyrs out the leaders of it and inflaming Irish nationalism far beyond what it was before. In many ways our reaction to the rebellion was what lead to an independent Ireland, so we have only ourselves to blame.

    I'm a massive Unionist and would dearly have liked to have seen Ireland remain in the Union, but the resulting split between us wasn't the result of us Brits just delaying and delaying giving you any power, it was the result of power struggles within the UK, stupid reactions to the Easter Rebellion and the worldwide calamity that was WW1.
    This here shows your lack of insight. The Ulster Unionists led by Carson and Craig fought against devolvement, they were totally against itl. They wanted an Ireland under British rule, ie. Protestant rule. The Unionists were also the ones who brought the gun into Irish politics and religion. They cast all the first stones.

    This is the irony of the entire debacle. The Ulster Unionists were so strongly against Home Rule that it almost led to an all out war between them and the Irish government. So, to solve it they were given Home Rule.


    (Original post by ajp100688)
    Erm, if you're from the United Kingdom you're British. Anything belonging to the United Kingdom is also classified as British. The people that live in Northern Ireland are British citizens and Northern Ireland is British land.

    Learn your nomenclature.
    Actually, we have dual citizenship. Learn your history.


    (Original post by WrongWayUp)
    why is northern ireland such a 'drain on resources'?
    It's not anymore, or wasn't before the recession. But during the Troubles we didn't have much going for us economically.
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    (Original post by rachlala14)
    For the person who said UDA/UFF are stone cold killers, what about the Omagh or Enniskillen Bomb? The IRA didn't even care if they killed their own people for a United Ireland. I take the stance that both sides are terrorists and are as bad as the other.
    Northern Ireland really still isn't at peace, so why ignite pure and utter violence again with a United Ireland?
    Anyone who knows the circumstances around the Omagh Bombing knows that it was just one huge **** up all round. The bomb wasn't placed where it was meant to be, the army knew about it, etc. The IRA never planned for those people to be hurt, it was meant to blow the city hall. Plus, it was done by one of the splinter groups, the Real IRA, not by the IRA that was tied to Sinn Fein, the Provisional IRA. It is also well known that these splinter IRA groups are far more hardline and even believe Sinn Fein are now traitors to Ireland, these splinter groups sound very like the 32CMS.

    As for the Enniskillen Bombing, it has the ring to it of a splinter group within the PIRA, seeing as it shook many of the high command rather badly, apparently. If it was done by a splinter group that went on to form the RIRA, then it's not surprising that they attacked then as they do believe that anyone who supports England or the British Army or is remotely tied to Britain is a traitor to the country. They still believe we are suffering under an occupation that we have become so accustomed to that we don't notice it or believe in it anymore, hence the shootings earlier this year.

    Personally, I believe we are still suffering from British occupation, I just don't think violence is the way forward anymore. I also think that when discussing the IRA in general, we should make it clear which iteration of the IRA we are discussing, the 1910s and 20s IRA, the IRA in the Troubles that became the PIRA and the Continuity IRA in 1986 or the Real IRA who formed in 1997.
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    • Unite Ireland
    • Kick the huns out
    • Guinness for all
    • Up the ra'


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    Personally I think it's all academic all this united Ireland stuff. I see wrong on both sides. Although I do think the British Army is unfairly blamed as ,all those young working class men had no choice and were sent to keep two warring sides of bog wogs apart. The army should not have had to go there if the politicians had not discriminated against the catholics. Armies are never much cop in policing actions. It all started as a civil rights movement until some gangsters and marxists used the catholics in NI for their own selfish ends.

    But I do not believe a united Ireland will ever happen, Simply because the south could not and does not want NI. So arguments about whether there should be an NI and what unionists and republicans think ,these polls in pointless. Do you really think the south can afford all the scroungers and doleys who claim off Britain in NI? (no saying all NI people are like that but like the rest of the UK they have their fair share) There is an NHS system up in NI ,do you think the population of NI will be happy with the souths system? Or will the south adopt an NHS system.How much will that all cost do you think? Then you have the recent outbreak of racial violence amongst the unionists against the gypo's. You have the security situation. No way the south can cope with all that. Do you know how much money the UK spends on Policing and security in NI. ? do you think with an UI all that will go away?

    A united ireland these days is a naive and romantic ideal.It won't happen.Leaving aside what the population think in NI the south doesn't want it. I'd wager the British would like less to do with it to be quite honest.Certainly it was thought about during the troubles. It was and is a pain in the arse. I can see scotland perhaps gaiining more independence.But NI ? No way.
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    (Original post by LALA LAND)
    are hopes dont simply lie on the oul grounds of ethnicity and the right to self determination but, which sinn fein are currently on a new campaign for, is the hearts and minds of the unionist community and showing them that they are better of in a united ireland and in turn can have a greater voice and representation.
    Have they ever managed that? What exactly have they promised? A devolved Northern Ireland within Ireland? Equality of cultural symbols? Flying the Union Jack on Leinster House?

    Despite the message its flag was supposed to send (which has been completely forgotten in most cases), the Irish republic remains a very monocultural state. I don't think many nationalists even today are comfortable about an Ireland where British culture is equal to traditional Irish culture.

    unionists will not be treated as the nationalists were treated by the british. just look at the decline of southern unionism!
    Just look at the decline in the number of Protestants in the south - I suspect the two are interlinked rather than a community being somehow persuaded.

    (Original post by nikki-77)
    northern ireland is part of the UK, not Britain.
    That's simply false. Great Britain is a geographical term, Britain is a political one. Indeed, Britain has always been used very flexibly; during the time of the empire, 'Britains' was used plurally (particularly in Latin) to refer to the imperial possessions.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Furthermore, at the time, Ireland was a single, cohesive political unit and should have been dealt as such. Much like Lib claims we should treat the UK.
    It wasn't though - it was a part of the UK. It had a few local institutions, such as the Irish Lieutenancy, but nothing of any real note.

    This here shows your lack of insight. The Ulster Unionists led by Carson and Craig fought against devolvement, they were totally against itl. They wanted an Ireland under British rule, ie. Protestant rule.
    Craig may have wanted that, but Carson certainly didn't - he was very firm in his opinions about equal treatment of Catholics in a time when it wasn't a particularly popular thing to draw attention to.

    This is the irony of the entire debacle. The Ulster Unionists were so strongly against Home Rule that it almost led to an all out war between them and the Irish government. So, to solve it they were given Home Rule.
    That is certainly the case, and I suppose it is quite bizarre really. Power does, however, have a hold over those it is given to - which is probably why the old Parliament of Northern Ireland never dissolved itself or petitioned Westminster to be dissolved.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Anyway, the Nationalist hope for out-birthing the Protestants really sweeps their Nationalism into new and yet more vile territory: ethno-nationalism.
    Which is what Protestants relied on from day one?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Have they ever managed that? What exactly have they promised? A devolved Northern Ireland within Ireland? Equality of cultural symbols? Flying the Union Jack on Leinster House?

    Despite the message its flag was supposed to send (which has been completely forgotten in most cases), the Irish republic remains a very monocultural state. I don't think many nationalists even today are comfortable about an Ireland where British culture is equal to traditional Irish culture.
    Why would the Irish Republic fly the Union Jack? You seem to have this idea that the Irish should fly another country's flag, in direct contradiction of what they believe in. It would be like the White House flying the Union Jack. Pandering to Ulster Loyalists has never worked before, so why would it work with another partitionist devolved Northern Ireland?
 
 
 
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