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European Court of Human Rights criminalises boycott of Israel Watch

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    (Original post by Axes)
    Totalitarian, Israel? :confused:
    A totalitarian democracy, says Talmon, accepts "exclusive territorial sovereignty" as its right. It retains full power of expropriation and full power of imposition, i.e., the right of control over everything and everyone. Maintenance of such power, in the absence of full support of the citizenry, requires the forceful suppression of any dissenting element except that which the government purposely permits or organizes

    Fits exactly
    Police state seems to weak.
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    A totalitarian democracy, says Talmon, accepts "exclusive territorial sovereignty" as its right. It retains full power of expropriation and full power of imposition, i.e., the right of control over everything and everyone. Maintenance of such power, in the absence of full support of the citizenry, requires the forceful suppression of any dissenting element except that which the government purposely permits or organizes

    Fits exactly
    Police state seems to weak.


    Considering the fact that Israel has a large, vocal and totally free media, a population that can pretty much say whatever it wants, a parliment in which every citizen can vote and arguably the most activist high-court in the west, then your post is not only the epitome of arrogance, but it reeks of ignorance as-well.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    Considering the fact that Israel has a large, vocal and totally free media, a population that can pretty much say whatever it wants, a parliment in which every citizen can vote and arguably the most activist high-court in the west, then your post is not only the epitome of arrogance, but it reeks of ignorance as-well.
    You are deluded. Compared to a European country Israel is exactly how I described it and I'm not even talking about Israel's hegemony.
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    You are deluded. Compared to a European country Israel is exactly how I described it and I'm not even talking about Israel's hegemony.

    First of all, you didn't make your statement with comparison to Europe, you made it independantly, thus you are backtracking. Second, when faced with similar situations like Israel, European countries tended to be far harsher, less prone to compromise, and far more militant than Israel. Thus, as I've said before, your posts reek of ignorance.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    First of all, you didn't make your statement with comparison to Europe, you made it independantly, thus you are backtracking. Second, when faced with similar situations like Israel, European countries tended to be far harsher, less prone to compromise, and far more militant than Israel. Thus, as I've said before, your posts reek of ignorance.
    :p: as I have said on similar topics before, I don't recall Maggie Thatcher sending jets and dropping bombs onto Republican estates in Belfast in the 60's? Even the endless IRA bombing in British cities didn't provoke anything like that. Even Thatcher had a tiny bit of empathy and restraint



    For your information:Just over 3500 British casualties in the Troubles
    Just over 2500 Israeli casualties since 1987 to present
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    :p: as I have said on similar topics before, I don't recall Maggie Thatcher sending jets and dropping bombs onto Republican estates in Belfast in the 60's?


    That's because maggie wasnt faced with an enemy which bombarded Brittain's cities on a daily basis, intent on the UK's destruction and unwilling to make peace. The last time that happened to Brittain (in the 40's), you retaliated by killing close to a million German civilians .



    Even the endless IRA bombing in British cities didn't provoke anything like that.


    Indeed, because you had other options. While Israel renounced controll of Gaza, the UK was unwilling to do the same, and continued to occupy N.Ireland. Thus, it could infiltrate it at will with ground forces and did not need aerial support. When Brittain did need aerial support to take down an enemy (Afghanistan and Iraq), you will notice that it has created far more civilian casualties than Israel ever did .
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    (Original post by Axes)
    That's because maggie wasnt faced with an enemy which bombarded Brittain's cities on a daily basis, intent on the UK's destruction and unwilling to make peace. The last time that happened to Brittain (in the 40's), you retaliated by killing close to a million German civilians .




    Indeed, because you had other options. While Israel renounced controll of Gaza, the UK was unwilling to do the same, and continued to occupy N.Ireland. Thus, it could infiltrate it at will with ground forces and did not need aerial support. When Brittain did need aerial support to take down an enemy (Afghanistan and Iraq), you will notice that it has created far more civilian casualties than Israel ever did .
    I am not here to defend any of the pointless wars in Britain and Afghanistan. But there are differences, Britain will pull out and Britain is not committing ethnic cleansing or genocide. I am for the record, wholeheartedly against these wars.

    As for WW2 - are you really trying to defend ******* Hitler? Israel didn't even exist when that war started - there were heavy losses on all sides. But you can hardly compare a WORLD WAR to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

    And finally. Are you really trying to say that the republican movement was any less traumatic to the people of Britain than attacks on Israel? As a superpower in the Middle East Israel has a duty to act responsibly and minimise civilian casualties - something which it consistently fails to do. Everyone on the planet knows that Hamas does not have the means to 'destroy' Israel. And as for Israel 'renouncing' control of Gaza, it is completely nonsense, they were sealed in and Gaza became a prison!
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    Actually, so far the BDS movement has put many Israeli's out of business, mainly through divestment, which is brilliant. Some supermarkets and shops have dropped Israeli products through direct protests, which although may not exactly cripple Israel's economy it is nevertheless a win. Oranges don't taste so good when they are grown on ethnically cleansed soil

    But the BDS movement is not just about economic boycott, it includes Cultural and Academic boycott. Every time a protester gets arrested it's a win for us because it means more publicity for the movement.
    You put some Israeli people (jews only, I presume?) out of business? Wow, you're really helping the Palestinians there aren't you. Well done. Awesome, bankrupt people just for being born in a country and force their family and children to starve - woohoo. You really have the moral highground. ****.

    I can't believe you support Cultural and Academic Boycotts. The academy in Israel is exceptionaly critical of the government and universities in Israel (as in the rest of the world) are exceptionally leftist yet you choose to shun an entire people. Further, you ONLY choose to boycott Israel? No boycott of any other country or regime? hmm....and of course you only boycott Israeli jews. You'll still collaborate with Israeli arabs and those jews who pass your special political tests? You wonder why people think your campaigns are motivated by anti-semitism when jews have had this happen to this countless times in the past.


    Oh and regarding ethnically cleansed oranged (or whatever **** you're talking about): You are aware that Jaffa is predominantly an Arab town, right?
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    I am not here to defend any of the pointless wars in Britain and Afghanistan. But there are differences, Britain will pull out and Britain is not committing ethnic cleansing or genocide. I am for the record, wholeheartedly against these wars.

    We are comparing countries actions, not your opinions of them, which are irrelevant. Notice that the UK's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, are just about if not more brutal than Israel's. Infact, judging from the sheer amount of aerial bombing you commit, Israel is far more carefull from hitting civilians than your nation is.



    As for WW2 - are you really trying to defend ******* Hitler? Israel didn't even exist when that war started - there were heavy losses on all sides. But you can hardly compare a WORLD WAR to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

    Why can't I, because its uncomfortable for you? When your country had to defend itself, really had to defend itself, it was far more brutal than Israel, and this is really what matters.



    And finally. Are you really trying to say that the republican movement was any less traumatic to the people of Britain than attacks on Israel?


    Without a doubt.
    - The republican movement is not sworn to the destruction of the UK, thus the UK has the option of negotiation.

    - The republican movement has attacked you sparodically, while Hamas, prior to Israel's response, was bombarding 15% of the nation on a daily basis, with hundreds of thousands living in bunkers. The last time the UK had to deal with anything close to such a situation was 60 years ago.

    - Brittain has not stopped its occupation of NI (Israel DID leave Gaza), thus you can freely move within the territory, and limit yourself to military incursions. Had you left NI like we left Gaza, and NI started bombing your cities, you would be left with the options of reconquest or an aerial offense. Either choices would have put you in the same boat as us .


    As a superpower in the Middle East Israel has a duty to act responsibly and minimise civilian casualties - something which it consistently fails to do.


    And indeed, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the national conflicts with the lowest number of civilian casualties in history. And there is a limit to how much one can prevent civilian casualties when your enemy (hamas) is ruthless and profits from its own dead, using them as cover for its operations against Israel. When Hamas fires FROM population centres AT population centres, its nearly impossible to prevent civilian casualties, especially when there is no choice but to respond militarily since Hamas is unwilling to negotiate.
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    :p:
    Who said anything about a Students Union?
    It's people like you who try to force their marginal, pathetic, discriminatory politics onto entire groups of people be they in supermarkets, students unions, trade unions or municipalities. I bet you love wanderin around supermarkets with your ketchup bottles chastising people and make jews feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, eh?

    Extremist! Ha that's a good one, coming from a supporter of a totalitarian state with a right wing government.
    Israel? Totalitarian? What planet are you on?! Have you ever been to the region and visited Israel? like actually spoken to Israelis? wow....

    and re: the government. I hate the government. But i do love how supporting a right wing government is considered extreme. lol

    And for the record I dont smoke weed and dreads are appalling:eek:
    Well you're one of very few of your kind who don't....
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    Funny that the jewish-origin-Sarkozy ruled France declares freedom to be only those actions that comply with his interests.

    How exactly is banning intention to boycott Zionist products not against freedom of expression?
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    (Original post by maths-enthusiast)
    Funny that the jewish-origin-Sarkozy ruled France declares freedom to be only those actions that comply with his interests.

    How exactly is banning intention to boycott Zionist products not against freedom of expression?
    Can people not read? This ruling does not stop people boycotting Israel ot trying to boycott Israel. It stops municpial leaders calling for their council ward/municipality to boycott Israel as it is discriminatory against the israeli/jewish/zionist/whatever people inside the constituency.
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    Sorry I only read this
    The European Court of Human Rights recently upheld a ruling that it is discriminatory and illegal to call to boycott Israeli goods.
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    gcampb has never been to the Middle East. I can tell as if you had ever been to the West Bank security fence like I have you would see one side painted beige, and the other side with paintings and graffitii of jews as devils.
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    (Original post by Harris)
    gcampb has never been to the Middle East. I can tell as if you had ever been to the West Bank security fence like I have you would see one side painted beige, and the other side with paintings and graffitii of jews as devils.
    I've seen the security barrier (both the fence and the wall) and Jewish Devils aside - it is horrific. I really do support the notion of this barrier and if it were built along the green line, and did not cut MANY palestinian farmers form their land, and did not uproot many olive trees that are the main source of income for many palestinian towns and did not cut children off form their schools then I wouldn't have a bad word to say about it.

    However, the barrier cuts into the heart of Palestinian cities to protect settlements and many farmers and school children who can physically see their schools and farmland from their own home have to make a 1-2 hour journey each way just to access them.

    As with everything in this conflict - there's no clear-cut answer and there's no easy morality and anybody who suggests that there is, either hasn't truly considered the issues hard enough or is being disingenuous.
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    (Original post by Dionysus)
    Boycotting a nation's goods should never be illegal. It was one of the main reasons the South African regime was overthrown. I just wish that Palestinian campaign groups weren't basically an extension of the SWP. It doesn't do their credibility much good. Occupying university buildings etc.
    Perhaps that's the case in England, but in Scotland, the SPSC is clearly separate from the SWP, and indeed the two have had numerous feuds. The SPSC, particularly in Edinburgh, has done some excellent and wide ranging work targeting the Israel and its interests, in particular, its interruption of a concert by the Jerusalem Quartet, "distinguished musicians of the IDF", for which five of its members are now facing trumped up charges of "racially aggravated conduct".
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    (Original post by Klezmatic)
    Perhaps that's the case in England, but in Scotland, the SPSC is clearly separate from the SWP, and indeed the two have had numerous feuds. The SPSC, particularly in Edinburgh, has done some excellent and wide ranging work targeting the Israel and its interests, in particular, its interruption of a concert by the Jerusalem Quartet, "distinguished musicians of the IDF", for which five of its members are now facing trumped up charges of "racially aggravated conduct".

    SPSC are disgusting, and really do cross the anti-semite line far too often. Interupting music concerts? You think that's good work?! You think chastising jews who just happen to have been born in Israel is helping the palestinians? Would SPSC have interrupted the concert if it were israeli arabs/pal citizens of Israel?!
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    SPSC are disgusting, and really do cross the anti-semite line far too often. Interupting music concerts? You think that's good work?! You think chastising jews who just happen to have been born in Israel is helping the palestinians? Would SPSC have interrupted the concert if it were israeli arabs/pal citizens of Israel?!
    You obviously didn't read my post properly, I made it very clear that the Jerusalem Quartet were no ordinary string quartet. They were "distinguished musicians" of the IDF, and received large amounts of funding from the Israeli government to act as "cultural ambassadors of Zionism". The Jewish ethnicity of the Quartet was irrelevant. Indeed, it cannot be denied that many of the worst war criminals in the IDF are actually of Arab or Druze origin.

    Your accusation of anti-semitism makes no sense. Opposing the disgusting ideology of Zionism is not anti-semitic, despite the efforts of the Israeli government to portray it as such. I'm of Jewish origin myself, and have attended several meetings of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, which recently organised a joint speaking tour with the SPSC.
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    (Original post by Klezmatic)
    You obviously didn't read my post properly, I made it very clear that the Jerusalem Quartet were no ordinary string quartet. They were "distinguished musicians" of the IDF, and received large amounts of funding from the Israeli government to act as "cultural ambassadors of Zionism". The Jewish ethnicity of the Quartet was irrelevant. Indeed, it cannot be denied that many of the worst war criminals in the IDF are actually of Arab or Druze origin.

    Your accusation of anti-semitism makes no sense. Opposing the disgusting ideology of Zionism is not anti-semitic, despite the efforts of the Israeli government to portray it as such. I'm of Jewish origin myself, and have attended several meetings of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, which recently organised a joint speaking tour with the SPSC.

    Opposing certain policies conducted in the name of zionism is legitemate. But delegitemizing the whole Jewish national movement (Zionism), IS anti-semitic. For example: I can criticize certain British policies, but if I try to delegitemize British nationalism as a whole, I would be just as bigotted.
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    (Original post by Klezmatic)
    You obviously didn't read my post properly, I made it very clear that the Jerusalem Quartet were no ordinary string quartet. They were "distinguished musicians" of the IDF, and received large amounts of funding from the Israeli government to act as "cultural ambassadors of Zionism". The Jewish ethnicity of the Quartet was irrelevant. Indeed, it cannot be denied that many of the worst war criminals in the IDF are actually of Arab or Druze origin.

    Your accusation of anti-semitism makes no sense. Opposing the disgusting ideology of Zionism is not anti-semitic, despite the efforts of the Israeli government to portray it as such. I'm of Jewish origin myself, and have attended several meetings of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, which recently organised a joint speaking tour with the SPSC.
    I'm a jew thus i cannot be anti-semitic. The Jerusalem quartet say nothing about being musicians of the IDF, because they AREN'T! Cultural acts receiving money form their government to be able to play abroad is nothing new or unique to Israel. Nor od they act as cultural ambassadors of zionism - it's music not politics. And even if it were, would that be an excuse to disrupt a performance that people paid money to see just because they're israeli.

    Opposing the jewish people's right to establish a homeland and to have the opportunity to self-govern and not to be a 'tolerated minority' at best and persecuted/exterminated at worst. You can oppose Israeli policy (I certainly do) but opposing zionism in itself is bigoted.

    Quel surprise, you're of jewish origin. well done! You think that makes your opinions any more valid?! please! and you wonder why SPSC co-opt with JAZN? - it's to sheild their deep-rooted anti-semitism so that they can tell themselves that they have jewish friends ergo can't be anti-semites.
 
 
 
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