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European Court of Human Rights criminalises boycott of Israel Watch

  • View Poll Results: Is boycott an effective non-violent protest against Israel?
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    I've seen the security barrier (both the fence and the wall) and Jewish Devils aside - it is horrific. I really do support the notion of this barrier and if it were built along the green line, and did not cut MANY palestinian farmers form their land, and did not uproot many olive trees that are the main source of income for many palestinian towns and did not cut children off form their schools then I wouldn't have a bad word to say about it.

    However, the barrier cuts into the heart of Palestinian cities to protect settlements and many farmers and school children who can physically see their schools and farmland from their own home have to make a 1-2 hour journey each way just to access them.

    As with everything in this conflict - there's no clear-cut answer and there's no easy morality and anybody who suggests that there is, either hasn't truly considered the issues hard enough or is being disingenuous.
    that was honestly a geat post. Im pos repping you well done sir.
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    SPSC are disgusting, and really do cross the anti-semite line far too often. Interupting music concerts? You think that's good work?! You think chastising jews who just happen to have been born in Israel is helping the palestinians? Would SPSC have interrupted the concert if it were israeli arabs/pal citizens of Israel?!
    Misinformed there. It was a quartet(I think or perhaps an orchestra) that was representing the IDF there is clearly a distinction.
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    (Original post by gcampb)
    Misinformed there. It was a quartet(I think or perhaps an orchestra) that was representing the IDF there is clearly a distinction.

    Err....excuse me - no they were/are not. Nor have the SPSC said that they were representing the IDF so you are either a massive liar or are hugely misinformed. They are an exceptional string quartet who happen to play for IDF troops when they are in Israel - that is their only connection.

    3 of their 4 members are part of Daniel Barenboim's Israel-palestinian-muslim-arab (West-Eastern Divan) orchestra. Daniel Barenboim (an outspoken critic of Israeli policy, who was bestowed a palestinian passport by the Palestinian Authority and who REGULARLY performs in the West Bank and other arab/muslim countries at SELL OUT performances) works very closely with the quartet and is a strong supporter of their work.

    What the people you support did was target Jews who just happened to be born in Israel [because that's where their grandparents were sent when they were (most-likely) expelled form their homes across either Europe or the Middle East] and who were accomplished musicians. What the people you support did was disrupt classical music because the people you support don't believe that jews (*ahem* sorry, 'zionists') are allowed to partake in such 'high cultural' activities. You and the people that you support knock me sick.

    PACBI say that if only the jews that they target came out and sat a political test and got a good enough score then they wouldn't be given any hassle. Well I'm sorry to tell you but us 'zionists' (read: jews) have been subjected to measures like this throughout our entire history - so don't wait wondering too long why we don't take kindly to groups whose automatic assumption is to shun us unless we fulfill specific criteria.

    Dear me.
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    Hey man. I don't like Israelis as much as the next guy but I guess this ruling kind of makes sense.

    I suppose you can't force someone to join a boycott (even though I'd support it myself) if they don't agree with it. If I can I try to avoid buying stuff I know is Israeli.

    I'll leave the rest to karma :yep:
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    (Original post by RandomKilledTime)
    Hey man. I don't like Israelis as much as the next guy:

    Well then, I suppose you don't like your nation either, and you try not to buy British and American products.. Right?
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    (Original post by Axes)
    Well then, I suppose you don't like your nation either, and you try not to buy British and American products.. Right?

    Of course not. DO you not understand that the root of all the world's problems is because Israel exists and all Israelis are the worlds most uniquely evil people. THUS, we should ONLY boycott Israeli goods because they're only bad people in the whole wide world?!

    DUH! You should boycott yourself you evil occupying, ethnic cleansing, imperialistic jew! YUCK!
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Oh look, a lefty arguing for individual liberty, freedom of choice and the right to discriminate. It's a shame you only respect those 'basic' rights when they can be used for your own purposes.
    I am hurt. :moon:
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    I am hurt. :moon:
    Just chalk it up to underlying sexual tension then.
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    This is horribly wrong yet not surprising, Israel is virtually an extension of the US and acts as its proxy in the middle east. Israel is responsible for terrible acts and the right to boycott is a fundamental one which shouldn't be removed, ironic the court of human rights is alleviating international pressure rather than applying it. Also a hilarity how this is carryed out when the US-Cuban embargo remains, a state boycott continuing in spite of international law.
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    To the writer above: Cut the double standards. I don't see people calling for a boycott of the US or GB (which are arguably conducting the same actions, for good or for ill). I definately don't see people supporting a boycott of far worse nations, like Russia, Sri-Lanka, China, etc..

    Now why is that? Could it be that Israel, as usual, is held to a different standard then the rest of the world?
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    You can oppose Israeli policy (I certainly do) but opposing zionism in itself is bigoted.
    I have an issue with that statement, Zionism like any political ideology ought to be open to scrutiny, making it the sacred cow of political ideology only serves to stifle debate.

    Labeling all who are opposed to ethno-centric political ideologies "bigots" is at best ironic.
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    (Original post by Saff123)
    I have an issue with that statement, Zionism like any political ideology ought to be open to scrutiny, making it the sacred cow of political ideology only serves to stifle debate.

    Labeling all who are opposed to ethno-centric political ideologies"bigots" is at best ironic.

    and if you wish to oppose ideologIES then please go ahead but if zionism is the ONLY 'ethno-centric political' ideology that you oppose then I would still call you bigoted. I.E. Why is it only that only the jews that aren't allowed to have a state. If you equally oppose Kurdish, Tamil, Basque (etc. etc. ad infinitum) nationalism then good for you. If you support these other groups and oppose the jews, then there's something wrong with that picture.
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    and if you wish to oppose ideologIES then please go ahead but if zionism is the ONLY 'ethno-centric political' ideology that you oppose then I would still call you bigoted. I.E. Why is it only that only the jews that aren't allowed to have a state. If you equally oppose Kurdish, Tamil, Basque (etc. etc. ad infinitum) nationalism then good for you. If you support these other groups and oppose the jews, then there's something wrong with that picture.
    I'm not entirely sure why you believe one would have to mention every ideology one opposes on a thread dedicated to Israel-Palestine; to my mind Zionism as more akin to Castilian centric Spain of the 70s than the Basque or Catalan causes, which in any case modern Spain has little need for, beyond perhaps granting a degree of autonomy.

    The same is broadly true for the other two examples you mention; identifying Zionism and Israel with the underdogs "ad infinitum" in major conflicts, an odd choice in any light but one that speaks to the Israeli mindset of perpetual victimhood, and viewing critics as either necessary anti-semites, or self hating Jews.

    Those cards are wearing rather thin.
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    (Original post by Saff123)
    I'm not entirely sure why you believe one would have to mention every ideology one opposes on a thread dedicated to Israel-Palestine; to my mind Zionism as more akin to Castilian centric Spain of the 70s than the Basque or Catalan causes, which in any case modern Spain has little need for, beyond perhaps granting a degree of autonomy.
    I certainly don't believe one HAS to mention any other ideology in an Israel-Palestine thread and never said that anything else should be said. All that I said was that if somebody opposes zionism (the right of the jewish people/nation to self-determination) but is happy to support all other groups right to the same, then there's a double standard there.

    The same is broadly true for the other two examples you mention; identifying Zionism and Israel with the underdogs "ad infinitum" in major conflicts, an odd choice in any light but one that speaks to the Israeli mindset of perpetual victimhood, and viewing critics as either necessary anti-semites, or self hating Jews.

    Those cards are wearing rather thin.
    ?!

    You think i view critics of Israeli policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians as anti-semites? You've got to be kidding me. You clearly have no idea why I am or what I support. I take a firm stance against the occupation and employ a personal boycott on all goods made outside of the '67 borders (inc. for example Ahava products). I feel very strongly that the occupation is corrupting the occupier and I worry very deeply about the impact that the occupation is having on Israeli society. I am supporter of the Israeli peace movements and believe that organisations such as Peace Now, Breaking the Silence and ICAHD (Housing Demolitions) do important work that I happily to support.

    If you want to debate all of the above, then great! If you want to tell me that only the jews aren't allowed a state then I have no time for you.

    You wonder why Israelis see themselves as victims. Their country is criticized more than any other in the world (considering Jerusalem has more permament reporters than any other city in the world except washington), whose actions (however disgraceful) draw far worse protests than any action committed by other countries, and almost every single citizens knows somebody killed in a terrorist attack that for all intents and purposes have been constantly praised by the people of all the surrounding nations.

    Re: Israel the underdog. Well if we're talking about the Arab-Israel conflict then Israel certainly IS the underdog but if we're talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict then obviously, they aren't.

    I'm not even going to pretend that the crimes of both sides are equal because I'd be kidding myself. The occupation (by which I mean the absolute control that Israel has over almost every aspect of the Palestinians' lives) is a major root cause of all the violence and ill-feeling in the middle and it is a policy that i abhor.

    So please don't tell me that 'the cards' that I'm 'playing' to try and distract people from the 'true crimes' are wearing thin. The Israeli mentality is far more complex than you could ever wish to analyze and if you really can't see why they might see themselves as victims then you really haven't thought about this situation enough.
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    I certainly don't believe one HAS to mention any other ideology in an Israel-Palestine thread and never said that anything else should be said. All that I said was that if somebody opposes zionism (the right of the jewish people/nation to self-determination) but is happy to support all other groups right to the same, then there's a double standard there.



    ?!

    You think i view critics of Israeli policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians as anti-semites? You've got to be kidding me. You clearly have no idea why I am or what I support. I take a firm stance against the occupation and employ a personal boycott on all goods made outside of the '67 borders (inc. for example Ahava products). I feel very strongly that the occupation is corrupting the occupier and I worry very deeply about the impact that the occupation is having on Israeli society. I am supporter of the Israeli peace movements and believe that organisations such as Peace Now, Breaking the Silence and ICAHD (Housing Demolitions) do important work that I happily to support.

    If you want to debate all of the above, then great! If you want to tell me that only the jews aren't allowed a state then I have no time for you.

    You wonder why Israelis see themselves as victims. Their country is criticized more than any other in the world (considering Jerusalem has more permament reporters than any other city in the world except washington), whose actions (however disgraceful) draw far worse protests than any action committed by other countries, and almost every single citizens knows somebody killed in a terrorist attack that for all intents and purposes have been constantly praised by the people of all the surrounding nations.

    Re: Israel the underdog. Well if we're talking about the Arab-Israel conflict then Israel certainly IS the underdog but if we're talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict then obviously, they aren't.

    I'm not even going to pretend that the crimes of both sides are equal because I'd be kidding myself. The occupation (by which I mean the absolute control that Israel has over almost every aspect of the Palestinians' lives) is a major root cause of all the violence and ill-feeling in the middle and it is a policy that i abhor.

    So please don't tell me that 'the cards' that I'm 'playing' to try and distract people from the 'true crimes' are wearing thin. The Israeli mentality is far more complex than you could ever wish to analyze and if you really can't see why they might see themselves as victims then you really haven't thought about this situation enough.
    I really don't wish to turn this into a personal debate; I think it was a colossal strategic error to create a Jewish state, in the heart of the Arab world, and an immoral one given the inevitable need to resort to ethnic cleansing to make it a reality. the consequences of which we all live with to this day.

    I don't deny Israel's right to exist (within it's recognized borders), and it's right to self determination. However my support here rests with the understanding that generations of Israelis have been born there and know no other home. Not because they belong to any particular ethnicity. In fact Zionism to me never really took into consideration the indigenous populations human rights, and that flaw is one that continues to this day in the kinds of institutional racism that exists in Israel, it's not in any sense unique, in fact it is one that is shared with all major ethno-centric ideologies.

    Israel is criticized widely, but it's also awarded special privileges in by the western world, trade, arms, aid despite its record; it is the responsibility of the citizenry of any nation to call into question such a relationship and their right to be able to do so without being labelled as bigots, in fact that unique relationship may go some way to explaining the nature of the criticism.
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    (Original post by Saff123)
    I really don't wish to turn this into a personal debate; I think it was a colossal strategic error to create a Jewish state, in the heart of the Arab world, and an immoral one given the inevitable need to resort to ethnic cleansing to make it a reality. the consequences of which we all live with to this day.

    I don't deny Israel's right to exist (within it's recognized borders), and it's right to self determination. However my support here rests with the understanding that generations of Israelis have been born there and know no other home. Not because they belong to any particular ethnicity. In fact Zionism to me never really took into consideration the indigenous populations human rights, and that flaw is one that continues to this day in the kinds of institutional racism that exists in Israel, it's not in any sense unique, in fact it is one that is shared with all major ethno-centric ideologies.

    Israel is criticized widely, but it's also awarded special privileges in by the western world, trade, arms, aid despite its record; it is the responsibility of the citizenry of any nation to call into question such a relationship and their right to be able to do so without being labelled as bigots, in fact that unique relationship may go some way to explaining the nature of the criticism.
    I respect (but disagree with) your view of zionism. I agree that the strongest reason for Israel's continued existence is that it currently exists and Israelis were born in Israel, even if their grandparents were born elsewhere.

    And i agree that the transfer of so many Arabs out of the new fledgling state is a massive stain on Israel's history - one that I hope they can one day go on to rectify in some way however population transfer/ethnic cleansing is far from unique in the modern history of country formation. Jordan, to pick a close example was cleansed of jews (before its creation as a state) and was established partly on the proviso that no jews would ever live or settle there. Another example being Pakistain, where many 100,000s of Hindus and other non-muslims were shipped out against their will.

    I also find it exceptionally upsetting that many of those who care so deeply about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian arabs from Israel in 47/48 (as they quite rightly should) dismiss Jewish claims of ethnic cleansing so easily. Close to 1m jews fled from more than 10 arab countries leaving billions in assets behind.

    I take your point re: 'special relationship' but I feel this is far over-played. Many other countries with far worse human rights records also receive tons of aid, trade and arms are criticized nowhere near as much. Every single aspect of Israeli society is under deep scrutiny from so many different quarters from around the world. If almost any country in the world were scrutinized to the extent that Israel is, I'm sure they'd come off looking just as bad if not worse.
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    I respect (but disagree with) your view of zionism. I agree that the strongest reason for Israel's continued existence is that it currently exists and Israelis were born in Israel, even if their grandparents were born elsewhere.

    And i agree that the transfer of so many Arabs out of the new fledgling state is a massive stain on Israel's history - one that I hope they can one day go on to rectify in some way however population transfer/ethnic cleansing is far from unique in the modern history of country formation. Jordan, to pick a close example was cleansed of jews (before its creation as a state) and was established partly on the proviso that no jews would ever live or settle there. Another example being Pakistain, where many 100,000s of Hindus and other non-muslims were shipped out against their will.

    I also find it exceptionally upsetting that many of those who care so deeply about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian arabs from Israel in 47/48 (as they quite rightly should) dismiss Jewish claims of ethnic cleansing so easily. Close to 1m jews fled from more than 10 arab countries leaving billions in assets behind.

    I take your point re: 'special relationship' but I feel this is far over-played. Many other countries with far worse human rights records also receive tons of aid, trade and arms are criticized nowhere near as much. Every single aspect of Israeli society is under deep scrutiny from so many different quarters from around the world. If almost any country in the world were scrutinized to the extent that Israel is, I'm sure they'd come off looking just as bad if not worse.
    Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were all equally guilty of getting caught up in the blood letting during partition. My view remains that it was a horrific error in judgement to create Pakistan, not just as some have argued a question of poor logistics and planning during partition. Secular states are somthing I'm passionate about, and to be clear I'm not a Dawkins anti-religious type-person, I just believe in the political arena "race" and "religion" should not have a role if we bright apes are to survive long term.

    I am aware of the hostility the creation of Israel created in the Islamic world and I'm not blind to the tragic exodus of Jewish communities that were in existence for millennia, in all I think they are all the poorer for the loss of diversity in their societies.

    I don't think Israel is placed under any genuine scrutiny in the US, many private institutions have even banned discussing the conflict, in Europe things are different publicly, but not so much within the establishment.

    I'm optimistic about a peace deal in the near future, but I feel its a great tragedy that two of the worlds great faiths have come into conflict, and while a deal may be reached I think the deep seated animosity is here to stay.
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    (Original post by Saff123)
    Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were all equally guilty of getting caught up in the blood letting during partition. My view remains that it was a horrific error in judgement to create Pakistan, not just as some have argued a question of poor logistics and planning during partition. Secular states are somthing I'm passionate about, and to be clear I'm not a Dawkins anti-religious type-person, I just believe in the political arena "race" and "religion" should not have a role if we bright apes are to survive long term.
    a) I don't know enough about Pakistan and the partition, so I can't agree or disagree.

    b) I wish we lived in a world where there was no need for the state of Israel and in a world where jews could live anywhere without having to be the 'tolerated minority' at best and the exterminated at worst. I'd love nothing more for the world to be a place that wasn't filled with bigotry. Sadly, this isn't the case.

    I am aware of the hostility the creation of Israel created in the Islamic world and I'm not blind to the tragic exodus of Jewish communities that were in existence for millennia, in all I think they are all the poorer for the loss of diversity in their societies.

    I don't think Israel is placed under any genuine scrutiny in the US, many private institutions have even banned discussing the conflict, in Europe things are different publicly, but not so much within the establishment.
    I'd disagree re: the establishment. Israel evicts 2 families from houses that they weren't paying rent in (whilst leaving all other families who were paying rent intact) and suddenly high ranking officials in the UN and almost every government in the world are condemning this. What other country comes under such scrutiny for evicting 2 families from houses?! [For the record i was 1000000000% opposed to this action by Israel and think it was disgusting, and have campaigned against it].

    I'm optimistic about a peace deal in the near future, but I feel its a great tragedy that two of the worlds great faiths have come into conflict, and while a deal may be reached I think the deep seated animosity is here to stay.
    I'm pessimistic about a peace deal. Neither Israel nor Palestine have a leadership that want or are willing to make peace. Both sides need to get over their petty notion of 'justice' for past wrong-doings and maybe we can move forward.
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    a) I don't know enough about Pakistan and the partition, so I can't agree or disagree.

    b) I wish we lived in a world where there was no need for the state of Israel and in a world where jews could live anywhere without having to be the 'tolerated minority' at best and the exterminated at worst. I'd love nothing more for the world to be a place that wasn't filled with bigotry. Sadly, this isn't the case.
    If I were a Jew in 1946 faced with aftermath of the Holocaust, and the weight of the history of anti-semiticsm; I honestly may well have looked to Zionism as a solution. To be clear I don't think Zionists were inherently evil doers; out for carnage for the sake of it as in Stalinism or Naziism.

    I just believe in hindsight it was an error, and I don't agree with these kinds of political theories in general; you may not know much about Pakistan and while are are differences it's a good example I think of the dismembering of political, social, and cultural pluralism.
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    (Original post by danielf90)
    I'm a jew thus i cannot be anti-semitic. The Jerusalem quartet say nothing about being musicians of the IDF, because they AREN'T! Cultural acts receiving money form their government to be able to play abroad is nothing new or unique to Israel. Nor od they act as cultural ambassadors of zionism - it's music not politics. And even if it were, would that be an excuse to disrupt a performance that people paid money to see just because they're israeli.

    Opposing the jewish people's right to establish a homeland and to have the opportunity to self-govern and not to be a 'tolerated minority' at best and persecuted/exterminated at worst. You can oppose Israeli policy (I certainly do) but opposing zionism in itself is bigoted.

    Quel surprise, you're of jewish origin. well done! You think that makes your opinions any more valid?! please! and you wonder why SPSC co-opt with JAZN? - it's to sheild their deep-rooted anti-semitism so that they can tell themselves that they have jewish friends ergo can't be anti-semites.
    Here's IJAN's statement with regards to the Jerusalem Quartet.

    (Original post by IJAN)
    Solidarity with Scottish PSC action - IJAN statement

    Thursday, 20 August 2009 09:47

    by IJAN (International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network) 11 August 2009

    As a Jewish network committed to justice and a full recognition of the rights of the Palestinian people, we reject the false premise that a challenge to the injustice of Israeli apartheid is a “racially motivated” act targeting Jewish people. It is in fact the premise that Israel represents all Jewish people that is a racist equation. This equation has justified the establishment and maintenance of a brutal Israeli regime in Palestine guilty of ethnic cleansing and apartheid, and, with the latest attack on and blockade of Gaza, genocide.

    We are writing to express our unwavering support for the action taken by the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign (SPSC) activists to protest the Israeli state-sponsored Jerusalem Quartet performance at the 2008 Edinburgh International Festival.

    This protest was undertaken in support of the call from Palestinian civil society for full boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel for their vast violation of Palestinian rights and ethnic cleansing. The consistent actions taken by the SPSC in support of this call and to challenge Israeli apartheid demonstrates the depth of their commitment to anti-racist politics and organizing.

    As a Jewish network committed to justice and a full recognition of the rights of the Palestinian people, we reject the false premise that a challenge to the injustice of Israeli apartheid is a “racially motivated” act targeting Jewish people. It is in fact the premise that Israel represents all Jewish people that is a racist equation. This equation has justified the establishment and maintenance of a brutal Israeli regime in Palestine guilty of ethnic cleansing and apartheid, and, with the latest attack on and blockade of Gaza, genocide. This equation is the only one that has led to anti-Israel attacks on Jewish institutions. Demonstrating against Israel is not the same as demonstrating against Jews. To claim otherwise is to fuel the misperception and violent consequences of this dangerous equation.

    Not all Zionists are Jewish and not all Jews are Zionist. A growing number of Jews are speaking out on the violence being done in our name and on the attempt to justify it by exploiting the persecution of our ancestors. The Jewish British MP Gerald Kaufman spoke in anguish while the massacres in Gaza were taking place: "My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza." We share and echo his denunciation. The history of British and European anti-Jewish persecution cannot be an excuse for British and European collusion with the persecution of the Palestinian people.

    As Jews for whom the State of Israel does not speak, we commend the actions of the Scottish PSC. In these actions we see a consistent commitment to anti-racist politics and practice. We trust such consistency; it is only through the consistent and unrelenting commitment to anti-racism, and through recognition of the humanity of all people, can the safety and rights of any people be maintained.

    We denounce the perpetuation of hatred and violence by governments of the UK and other parts of Europe that participated in and permitted centuries of prejudice and persecution of the Jews of Europe and that now colludes with the racism of the Israeli State. We further denounce the targeting of those whose stand against all forms of racism, including those perpetrated against the Palestinian people. We see a familiar silence from these governments as crimes against the people of Palestine escalate, and we are reminded that while many stood against it, others stood for and many stood aside during the life and death struggle against European fascism and genocide of the last century.

    True solidarity with the Jewish history of persecution in Europe means solidarity with the people of Palestine. This solidarity honors histories of persecution and is the only one that can lead to justice in Palestine. Justice is the only prospect for peace and equity, and the only prospect of an end to the threat that Israel poses to all living there.

    It is the responsibility of any government committed to equality, justice and democracy to challenge ethnically-motivated State repression and apartheid and to not only allow but applaud those who have the courage to confront it.

    Yours,

    The International Jewish anti-Zionist Network
    UK-United States-Canada-France-Switzerland-Spain-Argentina-Morocco-Israel
 
 
 
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