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    (Original post by Magnum Opus)
    Why should it be a barrier? I don't see any reason for it except utter ignorance on the part of seeing it as one. Frankly I find it pathetic that some should expect others to conform to the same culture as ourselves. Why not just accept it and learn to live with them.
    Why should we be forced to accept their culture ?

    what is wrong with preserving the indigenous demographic, values and culture of our own people. Much like the rest of the world is free to preserve their own. ?
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    (Original post by crusading)
    Why should we be forced to accept their culture ?

    what is wrong with preserving the indigenous demographic, values and culture of our own people. Much like the rest of the world is free to preserve their own. ?
    He's not advocating we abandon our own culture for theirs, he is saying we should accept them and live next to them.
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    (Original post by Magnum Opus)
    Why should it be a barrier? I don't see any reason for it except utter ignorance on the part of seeing it as one. Frankly I find it pathetic that some should expect others to conform to the same culture as ourselves. Why not just accept it and learn to live with them.
    That's very idealistic but in real terms, of course it is! Maybe i'm just being a cynic...
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    He's not advocating we abandon our own culture for theirs, he is saying we should accept them and live next to them.
    I don't want to live next to turks.
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    (Original post by crusading)
    I don't want to live next to turks.

    I rather live next to Turks than live next to you
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    I don't think Turkey will ever join the EU, even Turkish people i have spoken have said they doubt it. It's just too culturally different. Compare Parisian culture with that of Istanbul, just too different.
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    (Original post by Stettin)
    First of all they don't worship a dead man.
    No, they merely worship a book that was written by a man who died hundreds of years ago. That's so much better, isn't it?

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Muslims weren't responsible for coups that destabilize the country.
    The coup that was executed in 1997 was in response to the Islamist government that was trampling over the Constitution.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    THey weren't responsible for the horrors that the country faced.
    They're at least partly to blame for the violent oppression of religious minorities and gay people in the country.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    They weren't responsible for enforcing nationalistic laws that jails anyone who attempts to practice free speech.
    Bearing in mind the response of many Turkish Muslims to the publication of Satanic Versus and the Muhammad cartoons, it's clear that freedom of religion isn't something many Muslims care about either.
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    (Original post by TheNorth)
    I don't think Turkey will ever join the EU, even Turkish people i have spoken have said they doubt it. It's just too culturally different. Compare Parisian culture with that of Istanbul, just too different.
    1 - Actually, Istanbul is a largely Europeanised city.

    2 - To be honest, I think it's unfair to compare Parisian culture with that of Istanbul - these two cities are far too distant. Similarly, it would be unfair to compare the attitudes of people in Reykjavik (Iceland) with the people of Nicosia (Cyprus); these two cities are relatively alien to each other in terms of culture. I think it's more sensible to analyse the similarities between, for example, Athenian culture to that of Istanbul.
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    No, they merely worship a book that was written by a man who died hundreds of years ago. That's so much better, isn't it?
    Again they don't worship a book nor was that book written by that man. Gets your facts straight. It would stop you from looking so silly.

    The coup that was executed in 1997 was in response to the Islamist government that was trampling over the Constitution.
    The Constitution which is "protected" by the army. The army which stepped in and "protected" the Constitution in 1960,1971 and 1980. A country like that has no place in Europe.

    Oh and a word of notice. You don't and can't protect a constitution by trampling on the right of the people. If you don't like a government you wait for the next election and vote against it. Not send tanks against it.

    They're at least partly to blame for the violent oppression of religious minorities and gay people in the country.
    At least partly? :rolleyes: These horrors were committed by the very organisations that seek to protect the "secular society" of Turkey.


    Bearing in mind the response of many Turkish Muslims to the publication of Satanic Versus and the Muhammad cartoons, it's clear that freedom of religion isn't something many Muslims care about either.
    Reply With Quote
    My we do have touch of Xenophobia don't we? Tarring the 1.4 billion strong Islamic faith with the action of a country that makes less then 5% of the total muslim population.


    Anyway. Turkey will require miracles to Join the EU. One on their part to reform and become more European and the other on the EU part to accept them.
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    (Original post by Stettin)
    Again they don't worship a book nor was that book written by that man.
    1 - They do de facto 'worship' that book - they regard it as the word of 'god'.

    2 - If Muhammad didn't write the book, who did?

    (Original post by Stettin)
    The Constitution which is "protected" by the army. The army which stepped in and "protected" the Constitution in 1960,1971 and 1980. A country like that has no place in Europe.
    Greece was governed by a military dictatorship till 1974; Spain was a dictatorship till 1978; similarly, fully-fledged democracy is a fairly new development in most of the Eastern European countries that joined the European Union in 2003 and 2007; etc. If these countries are fit for Europe, then Turkey also deserves a shot.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Oh and a word of notice. You don't and can't protect a constitution by trampling on the right of the people. If you don't like a government you wait for the next election and vote against it. Not send tanks against it.
    Ideally, yes.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    At least partly? These horrors were committed by the very organisations that seek to protect the "secular society" of Turkey.
    1- The frequent attacks against Christians are committed by Muslims, not the secularists.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6568911.stm
    http://www.compassdirect.org/en/disp...page=summaries
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183879,00.html

    2 - You argue tha the 'secular elite' (and not Muslims) are to blame for the oppression of religious minorities and gays in Turkey ? Fine. Tell me, who is to blame for the violent oppression of religious minorities and gays in other Muslim-majority countries?

    (Original post by Stettin)
    My we do have touch of xenophobia don't we? Tarring the 1.4 billion strong Islamic faith with the action of a country that makes less then 5% of the total muslim population.
    Actually, the reaction of the Muslim world in general to the Satanic Verses, the Muhammad cartoons and etc suggests that free speech isn't a value many Muslims are concerned about.
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    1 - They do de facto 'worship' that book - they regard it as the word of 'god'.

    2 - If Muhammad didn't write the book, who did?
    The Book isn't worshipped and yes it is seen has the word of God. If they prayed to the book I'll give it to you. The Quran was written after him. The Muslim population was growing to big. The Idea of passing on the Quran verbally could lead to people making mistakes. So it was compilled and sent around to muslims.

    Greece was governed by a military dictatorship till 1974; Spain was a dictatorship till 1978; similarly, fully-fledged democracy is a fairly new development in most of the Eastern European countries that joined the European Union in 2003 and 2007; etc. If these countries are fit for Europe, then Turkey also deserves a shot.
    You know the difference between these countries and Turkey? No one there who is defending the constitution supports coups of any form. In fact the last time spain had a coupe was in '81 if my memory serves me. It failed badly because people were into democracy. Democracy is something that is new to Eastern Europeans and they are making mistakes. But nothing on the level of Turkey. No army in the EU considereds it's self the sole protector of the Government.

    I'm going to ignore the Fox News link and the one with the mentally disturbed attacker. Other then that. The attacks in the BBC is by nationalist. Clearly not the "Islamists" that the Turkish army fears so much.


    2 - You argue tha the 'secular elite' (and not Muslims) are to blame for the oppression of religious minorities and gays in Turkey ? Fine. Tell me, who is to blame for the violent oppression of religious minorities and gays in other Muslim-majority countries?
    Turks secular or muslim are still conservative. Do you really think Muslims are the only one who don't like gay people? Who's killing them off in Christian majority countries in Africa?


    Actually, the reaction of the Muslim world in general to the Satanic Verses, the Muhammad cartoons and etc suggests that free speech isn't a value many Muslims are concerned about.
    Reply With Quote
    My part of the world was very quite.
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    Has anyone mentioned that Turkey would immediately become the country with the largest army in the EU?
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    (Original post by Stettin)
    it is seen has the word of God.
    There is, however, absolutely no evidence that the Quran is the word of 'god'. For this reason, believing that that old book is the word of a supernatural deity and worshipping the deity conjured up in that book is really no more sensible than 'worshipping' Ataturk - so you're attempt to ridicule Turkish people who respect the founder of the Turkish Republic is futile.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    You know the difference between these countries and Turkey? No one there who is defending the constitution supports coups of any form. In fact the last time spain had a coupe was in '81 if my memory serves me. It failed badly because people were into democracy.
    That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I merely stated that many of the countries in the European Union - such as Spain, Greece and Cyprus - historically do not have a great track record when it comes to democracy yet they were given the benefit of the doubt and have greatly improved over time - Turkey ought to get the same treatment.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Democracy is something that is new to Eastern Europeans and they are making mistakes. But nothing on the level of Turkey. No army in the EU considereds it's self the sole protector of the Government.
    Turkey hasn't had a coup in over twelve years. In fact, since 1997, Turkey has had largely free and fair general elections on three occasions and a peaceful transfer of power.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    I'm going to ignore the Fox News link
    Why?

    Here's a BBC article delineating the tragic incident: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4683548.stm

    (Original post by Stettin)
    The attacks in the BBC is by nationalist. Clearly not the "Islamists" that the Turkish army fears so much.
    There may be nationalist elements but it's clearly motivated by religion - why else would Christians be on the recieving end?

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Turks secular or muslim are still conservative.
    Yes, it's a largely conservative society, however, Muslim homophobia makes the situation far worse.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Do you really think Muslims are the only one who don't like gay people?
    If you take a look at a map of the world, the most harsh anti-gay laws are largely in Muslim-majority countries.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    My part of the world was very quite.
    That doesn't change the fact that the Muslim world in general is largely unsupportive of free speech.
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    There is, however, absolutely no evidence that the Quran is the word of 'god'. For this reason, believing that that old book is the word of a supernatural deity and worshipping the deity conjured up in that book is really no more sensible than 'worshipping' Ataturk - so you're attempt to ridicule Turkish people who respect the founder of the Turkish Republic is futile.
    There is one difference. Faith. People who have faith in a higher being believe that their God is omnipotent and omniscient.

    The Turkish people (the nutter secularists atleast) worship Ataturk. A man who has proven time and time again that he is infallible. He makes a decision one day and then changes his mind later. Preaches one thing but fails to practice it.
    Also the sheer stupidity in beliving what a man said 80 decades ago can still hold true today is stupid. At least with God he knows what the future will be. How the hell does Ataturk know?


    That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I merely stated that many of the countries in the European Union - such as Spain, Greece and Cyprus - historically do not have a great track record when it comes to democracy yet they were given the benefit of the doubt and have greatly improved over time - Turkey ought to get the same treatment.

    There is a major difference between these countries and Turkey. Those countries excises the Ghosts of the pasts and reformed themselves. Those who would corrupt the democracy of the state were weakened. The Spanish Army lost its grip on power and the conservatives embraced the Socialists. It doesn't matter what your history is as long has you learn not to repeat your mistakes. The Turkish army is having a hard time accepting that. Doesn't help with the "Deep State/Ergenekon" crap going. The Turkish army still needs to get into it's head that they can't interfere. If the PKK are attacking them they they have to ASK for permission to go after privately. They simply can't have a press conference to force the government into action.


    Oh and the last time the EU gave countries the benefit of the doubt they failed to reform. Blame it all on Bulgaria and Romania. Then again when you look at the performance of Spain,Portugal,Italy and Greece. The Mediterranean seems like a bad place to accept new members. I prefer we concentrate on getting Moldovia,Belarus and Ukraine in.



    Turkey hasn't had a coup in over twelve years. In fact, since 1997, Turkey has had largely free and fair general elections on three occasions and a peaceful transfer of power.

    Turkey hasn't had a coup in over twelve years. In fact, since 1997, Turkey has had largely free and fair general elections on three occasions and a peaceful transfer of power.
    The fact that you are boasting about 12 years since the last military takeover demonstrates how bad it looks for Turkey. It's also not just a case of them taking over the government. It's their influence over politicians. That shouldn't be allowed. They can't pressure the government to attack the PKK if the government doesn't want to violate Iraqi Sovereignty. They can't scheme with the opposition. They have to be neutral. They should take a lesson from Lebanon.

    Why?
    I don't need to answer why Fox News is on my ignore list. If I want propaganda and misinformation I'll go and watch CCTV 9.

    There may be nationalist elements but it's clearly motivated by religion - why else would Christians be on the recieving end?
    I think it's more complicated then that. Seeing at how the Armenians and Greeks have suffered even when there were no ethnic tensions. But the people the Secularists fear "Islamists" aren't nationalists. That's the opposite of Islamism.

    Yes, it's a largely conservative society, however, Muslim homophobia makes the situation far worse.
    So Secular Homophobia is better?

    If you take a look at a map of the world, the most harsh anti-gay laws are largely in Muslim-majority countries.
    If you also look at the map you'll see the most harsh anti-freedom laws are in largely muslim countries. Who tend to be run by dictators.

    That doesn't change the fact that the Muslim world in general is largely unsupportive of free speech.
    They support freedom of speech.... As long has it doesn't involve Islam being insulted.
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    (Original post by qwerty10)
    What do you think the chances are that Turkey will eventually join the EU? And do you think it would be a good or bad thing if it were to happen?
    A good thing, to apply for membership Turkey would need to meet EU standards on democracy, economics, human rights, and have a free press.
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    (Original post by Stettin)
    There is one difference. Faith. People who have faith in a higher being believe that their God is omnipotent and omniscient.
    They believe in the existence of this entity in the absence of evidence.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    The Turkish people (the nutter secularists atleast) worship Ataturk.
    No, they don't 'worship' him - they merely hold him in high regard for his success as a military leader, his fierce support for women's rights, his rejection of fundamentalist religion, etc.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Also the sheer stupidity in beliving what a man said 80 decades ago can still hold true today is stupid.
    The U.S. Bill of Rights, which prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law, was drafted by men over two hundred years ago; however, many people still consider it to be an appropriate template for a constition.

    This demonstrates the flaw in your statement (above).

    (Original post by Stettin)
    At least with God he knows what the future will be. How the hell does Ataturk know?
    How do you (or anyone else) know that the god of the Quran exists? You don't know. For this reason, regarding his 'word' as an appropriate foundation for a country (e.g. the 'Islamic State') is no more sensical than those who regard Ataturk's model as ideal.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    There is a major difference between these countries and Turkey. Those countries excises the Ghosts of the pasts and reformed themselves. Those who would corrupt the democracy of the state were weakened. The Spanish Army lost its grip on power and the conservatives embraced the Socialists. It doesn't matter what your history is as long has you learn not to repeat your mistakes. The Turkish army is having a hard time accepting that. Doesn't help with the "Deep State/Ergenekon" crap going. The Turkish army still needs to get into it's head that they can't interfere. If the PKK are attacking them they they have to ASK for permission to go after privately. They simply can't have a press conference to force the government into action.
    The fact of the matter is that the Turkish military is being undermined and the situation is improving as far as Turkey's democratic credentials are concerned.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    Oh and the last time the EU gave countries the benefit of the doubt they failed to reform. Blame it all on Bulgaria and Romania. Then again when you look at the performance of Spain,Portugal,Italy and Greece. The Mediterranean seems like a bad place to accept new members. I prefer we concentrate on getting Moldovia,Belarus and Ukraine in.
    Moldova is ranked no. 104, Ukraine is ranked no. 70 and Belarus is ranked no. 145 by the World Audit Democracy. On the other hand, Turkey is ranked at no. 50 (above EU member Romania) - so I think it's fair to say that you're being unduly harsh on the country.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    The fact that you are boasting about 12 years since the last military takeover demonstrates how bad it looks for Turkey.
    Actually, it demonstrates that things are improving.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    It's also not just a case of them taking over the government. It's their influence over politicians. That shouldn't be allowed. They can't pressure the government to attack the PKK if the government doesn't want to violate Iraqi Sovereignty. They can't scheme with the opposition. They have to be neutral. They should take a lesson from Lebanon.
    I'm not defending the army's right to interfere in politics.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    I don't need to answer why Fox News is on my ignore list. If I want propaganda and misinformation I'll go and watch CCTV 9.
    It was a news article, not an editorial.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    So Secular Homophobia is better?
    Religion fuels secular homophobia - it makes it acceptable.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    If you also look at the map you'll see the most harsh anti-freedom laws are in largely muslim countries. Who tend to be run by dictators.
    Islam itself is a dictatorial religion.

    (Original post by Stettin)
    They support freedom of speech.... As long has it doesn't involve Islam being insulted.
    So they suppport freedom of speech as long as the views expressed do not offend them? That's not particularly convincing.
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    of course not, because they are not in Europe.
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    (Original post by Crimsonchilli)
    of course not, because they are not in Europe.
    1 - That depends on your definition of 'European'.

    2 - If you're referring to culture, I honestly don't think the Cypriots are particularly more European than the Turks.
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    Turkey is not only not European, it has inferiority complex vis-a-vis Europe, and it reaps what it sows.

    By abandoning Islam, it only shot itself in the foot. Selling their own women for pittances, to be penetrated by all and sundry in an effort to ape europeans, has only resulted in further humiliation, rejection, backwardness, lack of a strong economic and technological base, and loss of relevance in regional affairs.
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    (Original post by CompanyLimited)
    1 - That depends on your definition of 'European'.

    2 - If you're referring to culture, I honestly don't think the Cypriots are particularly more European than the Turks.

    true but because of its Greek ties it makes sense, and secondly considering all the UK sovereign areas within it, from a selfish point of view it makes sense for Britain to support it being in the EU.
 
 
 
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