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    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...ear/index.html

    Iran has refused international calls to suspend its production of enriched uranium, which it insists will be used to fuel civilian nuclear power plants.

    Jaafari has said in the past that any strike against Iran's nuclear facilities would be regarded as the beginning of war.
    What do you guys think?
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    **** Iran, **** Israel... their governments at least, a rotten rabble. I hope they wipe each other out.
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    The US, EU, and Israel won't let Iran get a nuke - even if they have to do it by military means.
    I am glad the guy above me is so keen on seeing the Jewish and Persian peoples wiped out....
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    wouldnt mind Israel getting a taste of their own medicine. Good old America will come to their defence....it will never happen.
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    if iran goes vs israel.... thats it.... israel is wiped out!!! and what happens next is that america trys to step in but too bad they got all of asia against them. russia and china will go vs USA and hello world war 3 :P

    too bad i am in new zealand... we are too far away planes wont come to us

    *gets popcorn to watch*
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    (Original post by ali242)
    wouldnt mind Israel getting a taste of their own medicine. Good old America will come to their defence....it will never happen.
    'Taste of their own medicine,' name one time when Israel dropped a nuclear bomb on anybody. You cannot because it has never happened. A 'taste of their own medicine' implies that they are having something done to them that they often do to others. And so your statement is misleading and untruthful by the fact that Israel has never nuked anybody.

    It would be more accurate if you were to say:
    'I wouln't mind seeing Israel getting destroyed' because that would not imply that Israel ever dropped a nuclear bomb on anybody - which is fact.
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    If the title was changed to 'Israel ready to strike Iran' it would be far more accurate and likely.

    They do already have nuclear weapons, do they not?
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    (Original post by Bill Shakespeare)
    If the title was changed to 'Israel ready to strike Iran' it would be far more accurate and likely.

    They do already have nuclear weapons, do they not?
    No it would not. When was the last time you heard an Israeli politician declaring that it would be great if all Iranians were dead and that Iran was no longer a country.

    More accurate would be 'Israel preparing to strike Iran's nuclear facilities.'

    edit - If Israel was to nuke Iran then that would be the end of Israel - and Israel knows it.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    No it would not. When was the last time you heard an Israeli politician declaring that it would be great if all Iranians were dead and that Iran was no longer a country.

    More accurate would be 'Israel preparing to strike Iran's nuclear facilities.'
    Zionism is not Israel.

    That's why I usually stay clear of this debate, people are so easily offended.

    They are clear double standards in the Middle East. With Obama recent progress, albeit slight and only rhetorical, has been made. It will take a while to for many to forget the bias of the Bush era and longer to progress beyond the injusticies of the past.
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    (Original post by Bill Shakespeare)
    Zionism is not Israel.

    That's why I usually stay clear of this debate, people are so easily offended.

    They are clear double standards in the Middle East. With Obama recent progress, albeit slight and only rhetorical, has been made. It will take a while to for many to forget the bias of the Bush era and longer to progress beyond the injusticies of the past.
    Anyway I wasn't meaning to get into this debate, I was merely suggesting the fact that Israel is not stupid enough to nuke a country more than 10 times its size who controls at least one terrorist organization on Israel's border.

    But I would suggest that Obama's 'progress' is not what you think. I am willing to bet that this 'strict on settlements' talk is just a ploy to draw Syria to the table successfully.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    Anyway I wasn't meaning to get into this debate, I was merely suggesting the fact that Israel is not stupid enough to nuke a country more than 10 times its size who controls at least one terrorist organization on Israel's border.

    But I would suggest that Obama's 'progress' is not what you think. I am willing to bet that this 'strict on settlements' talk is just a ploy to draw Syria to the table successfully.
    I'm by no means even partially educated on the complex history of the region, so I try to avoid saying anything sweeping, but I do find it a hypocracy that Israel is a heavily armed nation, with nuclear weapons, with a history of aggressive action, yet if Iran develops such weapons there is an outcry.

    Now this does not make me a supported of Iran. Iran, like Israel, has a right wing element in it's government and also has a history of aggressive action against its neighbour.

    Therefore allowing them to develope nuclear weapons is dangerous - as it is for many countries. The U.S. is after all the only nation who has killed ten of thousands of civilians with such a weapon.

    Anyway, it is 'implications' around Israel that drive me insane.

    I wish people could reach a conclusion based on balance and not concepts of fear - such as hatred, anti-semitism or racism.

    Why can we not accept the right of an Israeli State, a Palestinian State and the Islamic State of Iran to exist without the constant war of words?

    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never said he wished to wipe Israel off the map. It's the constant scaremongering, all these news reports of possible violence, which cause much of the tension.

    We need to move on and take possitive action.
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    (Original post by FAILINGKID)
    if iran goes vs israel.... thats it.... israel is wiped out!!! and what happens next is that america trys to step in but too bad they got all of asia against them. russia and china will go vs USA and hello world war 3 :P

    too bad i am in new zealand... we are too far away planes wont come to us

    *gets popcorn to watch*
    don't use red alert 3 as a template for analysing real political conflicts.
    Its much more likely that all of Iran's nuclear facilities are wiped out by a quick air-strike.
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    Iran couldn't strike Israel even if it tried.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    'Taste of their own medicine,' name one time when Israel dropped a nuclear bomb on anybody. You cannot because it has never happened. A 'taste of their own medicine' implies that they are having something done to them that they often do to others. And so your statement is misleading and untruthful by the fact that Israel has never nuked anybody.
    A strike doesn't mean a nuclear strike. Israel has attacked multiple countries in an agressie manner and as a result violated their sovereignty. For example, Israel attacked a convoy in Sudan killing over 100 people. If Israel was to do that to a developed contry there would be outrage.
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    hello, WW3
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    (Original post by Bill Shakespeare)
    I'm by no means even partially educated on the complex history of the region, so I try to avoid saying anything sweeping, but I do find it a hypocracy that Israel is a heavily armed nation, with nuclear weapons, with a history of aggressive action, yet if Iran develops such weapons there is an outcry.

    Now this does not make me a supported of Iran. Iran, like Israel, has a right wing element in it's government and also has a history of aggressive action against its neighbour.

    Therefore allowing them to develope nuclear weapons is dangerous - as it is for many countries. The U.S. is after all the only nation who has killed ten of thousands of civilians with such a weapon.

    Anyway, it is 'implications' around Israel that drive me insane.

    I wish people could reach a conclusion based on balance and not concepts of fear - such as hatred, anti-semitism or racism.

    Why can we not accept the right of an Israeli State, a Palestinian State and the Islamic State of Iran to exist without the constant war of words?

    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never said he wished to wipe Israel off the map. It's the constant scaremongering, all these news reports of possible violence, which cause much of the tension.

    We need to move on and take possitive action.
    Hey dude this is the history of all the major wars in the region:

    Israeli War of Independence 1947:

    The UN voted in 1947 to partition Palestine into two territories, Israel and Palestine, Israel accepted this as it led to the creation of a Jewish state - Arabs did not agree to this seeing it as a means whereby Jews were stealing Arab land. Therefore about six Arab countries invaded Israel the night Israel declared independence. By the end of the war Israel had expanded to larger than the original partition planned it to be - but Jordan had annexed the West Bank, and Egypt had annexed Gaza.

    Suez canal war 1956: General Nasser of Egypt nationalized the Suez canal, thereby blocking a main trade route of Britain and France. Therefore Britain, France and Israel agreed to capture back the Suez canal. Israel went into the Sinai to kill the Fedayeen who had been terrorizing the Sinai outposts, but before France and Britain went in President Eisenhower demanded that Britain, France and Israel back down.

    Six Day War 1967: After the Suez Canal War the UN had put peacekeepers on the Egypt-Israeli border. But by 1967 Nasser had successfully removed the peace-keepers, had militarized his border - as did Syria and Jordan -, and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba. Therefore Israel preemptively attacked Egypt, Jordan, and Syria - capturing the Sinai Peninsular, Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights from Egypt, Jordan and Syria respectively. This more than doubled Israel's land area, leading to strategic benefits of having the Golan Heights and the religious turmoil of having Jerusalem in solely Jewish hands.

    Yom Kippur War 1973: The Arab countries around Israel wanted revenge for their defeat in the Six Day War. And so on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar; Jordan, Egypt, and Syria all invaded Israel. Initially the surprise attack was so successful that Israel thought it was going to be wiped out - my uncle was actually one of the few soldiers who survived the initial attack on the Golan Heights. But the Israeli regular soldiers held on long enough for the reserves to be successfully called up, whereupon the Syrian and Jordanian armies were handedly defeated and the Egyptian army was completely surrounded - although Israel did not destroy it on US orders.

    Lebanan War 1982 : In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon because Southern Lebanon was harboring the PLO who were striking Northern Israel. Israel invaded Lebanon, captured Southern Lebanon, and held it for the better part of the next 20 years. The PLO was, and still is, a Palestinian terrorist organization with the twin aims of creating a Palestinian State and to ''prohibit the existence and activity" of Zionism. Israel was heavily criticized for the invasion as Lebanon was a sovereign country that was not directly attacking Israel and was suffering through a terrible civil war - but the invasion stopped PLO activity in Southern Lebanon.

    The Intifada: In the early 1990s the intifada was a Palestinian uprising against Israel. Wikipedia states that the causes included:' The "Iron Fist" policy launched by Israel in 1985 along with economic integration and an increase in settler activity was in what the then Israeli minister of Economics and Finance, Gad Ya'acobi, noted "a creeping process of de facto annexation" contributed to a growing militancy of Palestinian society.' The uprising saw the tit-for-tat military activity that you probably have seen in the news recently - eg Suicide bombing followed by Israeli helicopter Strike. The intifada was successful in creating a show of Palestinian self-determination, the first time people thought about the Palestinians as an entity separate of their neighbors - Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon.

    The 2nd Intifada - Similar to the first.

    Lebanon War: Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon in 2000. Following the withdrawal of Israeli troops, the Iranian backed terrorist organization militarized southern Lebanon. Hezbollah started to fire rockets into Israel from the early 2000s, and it finally culminated when Hezbollah laid an ambush within Israel, of the seven Israelis ambushed: two were wounded, three were killed, and two were captured. Israel then launched a massive aerial bombardment on Lebanon, targeting Hezbollah but killing many civilians.

    Gaza conflict: Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza in 2005, in 2006 Hamas came to power in Gaza through winning a democratic election and the use of force. Hamas started to fire rockets into Southern Israel, this resulted in skirmishes in 2005, 2006 and 2007. In 2008 there was a six month ceasefire, but when Hamas started firing rockets again Israel decided to go into Gaza. The war provoked global condemnation as about 1600 Gazans were killed under an intense air bombardment - although the bombardment was at a smaller scale to that of Lebanon in 2006.

    basically most of the wars have had nothing to do with Religion. The only thing to do with Religion is Jerusalem, which is the holiest site in Judaism, the holiest site in Christianity, and the third holiest site in Islam. Currently Jerusalem is in Israeli hands, although Israel has handed over the Temple Mount (the third holiest site in Islam, and the holiest site in Judaism) to the Mufti of Jerusalem - a Muslim Arab - as a good will gesture. But in the future Jerusalem will probably be partitioned - West Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, East Jerusalem being the capital of a Palestinian State. Currently Israel's control of Jerusalem is considered illegal under international law as Jerusalem was designated a free city in the original partition - but when Jordan captured Jerusalem in 1948 that was also illegal so what goes around comes around.

    The only wars started by Israel without any justification under international law is the Suez Canal war. In both Lebanon Wars and the recent Gaza conflict Israel has been provoked by terrorist organizations (the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah). Therefore I do not think that it is warranted to describe Israel as the Aggressor when the vast majority of the major wars were started by its Arab neighbors (war of independence, 1967 (Arabs blockaded Gulf of Aqaba and moved 300,000 troops to the Israeli border), 1973 war (Arab countries invaded Israel on the holiest day in the Jewish Calendar), 1981 Lebanon war, 2006 Lebanon war, 2009 Gaza conflict). Here is a graph showing the rocket and mortar attacks of Hamas on Israel in 2008.


    But a two state solution is the only viable option - with Hamas either destroyed or no longer militarily operational. But dude, don't forget that you can lable Israel's government as right wing - but Fatah is led by a guy who has a phD in Holocaust denial, while Gaza is governed by Hamas. Netanyahu is right wing, as is Sarkozy and Angela Merkel.

    (I never said that the Iranian president said 'wipe Israel off the map' - I know that was a mistranslation - but he has said that he wants to see Israel no longer a Jewish state.)

    Hope that was somewhat helpful.
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    (Original post by Sakujo)
    Iran couldn't strike Israel even if it tried.
    Actually they could.
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    (Original post by Sakujo)
    A strike doesn't mean a nuclear strike. Israel has attacked multiple countries in an agressie manner and as a result violated their sovereignty. For example, Israel attacked a convoy in Sudan killing over 100 people. If Israel was to do that to a developed contry there would be outrage.
    Read the post I put above - oh so by your calculations the USA is no longer a state for attacking multiple countries through air strikes in the Clinton administration. I am willing to be that those '100 people' were not very friendly to Israel - Sudan is rather far away.

    I would also suggest that other countries that are no longer 'sovereign states' according to your calculations are:
    Britain.
    Syria (1973, build up to 1967 rocket fire into Northern Israel)
    Jordan (1973)
    Egypt (1973)
    Colombia (attacks on FARC in Venezuela)
    Argentina (Falklands war)
    Britain (conquest hundred years ago)
    France (empire)
    Portugal (empire)
    Spain (empire)
    Germany - self explanatory
    Austria - ditto

    You get my drift.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    I never said that the Iranian president said 'wipe Israel off the map' - I know that was a mistranslation - but he has said that he wants to see Israel no longer a Jewish state.)
    He wants to see Israel no longer a Zionist, Jewish State. And as I said in my first point, Zionism is not Israel.

    This is a common misconception that blurs opportunity for progress.

    Thanks for the historical information though, even if it can be disputed.
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    (Original post by Bill Shakespeare)
    He wants to see Israel no longer a Zionist, Jewish State. And as I said in my first point, Zionism is not Israel.

    This is a common misconception that blurs opportunity for progress.

    Thanks for the historical information though, even if it can be disputed.
    So he does not want a Jewish Israel, that is basically what it boils down to. And my argument is that there is no such thing as a non-Jewish Israel. The whole point of Israel is that it is Jews governing Jews, so that Jews no longer have to rely on being governed by others who persecute it (the holocaust was not the only incident of antisemitism).
 
 
 
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