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    (Original post by Oculist)
    No. Socialism is the greatest evil that has ever afflicted this world.
    Yes, a political system wanting equality for all is much worse than the Nazi regime for example. What a moronic post.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    I assume that everyone has read the historical evidence? The Welfare state instituted by the Labour government in the 1945 - 51 administration underwent several modficiations both by the Tories in the years I cited and by Wilson and Callaghan. There were several motions to attempt to 'modernise' Britain in several ways all of which revised the welfare state that Attlee and his ministers instituted. The idea that Thatcher was some great hero who rescued Britain in its darkest hour is, I'm afraid to say, historical propaganda on her behalf. She and her followers forged the idea of the post-war consensus to enable her to claim that she was pushing Britain in a whole new direction. The fact is she wasn't. She merely had the power to put into practice what Enoch Powell had been arguing for a decade earlier.



    You sure about that? I'm pretty sure our (taiwanese-made) TV had a plug on it.
    I am 100% that we had to buy plugs, it was a bit of a shock to an American family seeing such backwards technology. (Albeit I was 18 months old so I heard that over and over again from my parents)

    Lol 'historical propaganda' you cannot argue with her actions that brought down the trade unions and reformed the economy. In fact, you are the one clouded by propaganda.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    I am 100% that we had to buy plugs, it was a bit of a shock to an American family seeing such backwards technology. (Albeit I was 18 months old so I heard that over and over again from my parents)
    Pretty certain that we didn't. Perhaps Wales is more technologically advanced :p:

    (Original post by dn013)
    Lol 'historical propaganda' you cannot argue with her actions that brought down the trade unions and reformed the economy. In fact, you are the one clouded by propaganda.
    I didn't contradict your position as to her effect on the trade unions did I! Yes she damaged the trade unions to the extent that they no longer really work. My argument was more to do with whether her policies were as groundbreaking as you implied. They weren't.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    See, there's quite a lot of good history been done on the role of the Vatican in WW2 which suggests rather a lot of things to which the term "neutral" cannot be applied. Consider the arguments of Tony Judt for example.
    And every historian agrees with him, yeah?

    Consider the arguements of Micheal Burleigh. This idea that the Vatican were Nazis is conspiracy theory nonsense. You know that the Pope wrote scathing critiques of Nazism, right?

    If anything the Catholic Church has been very much a strong opponent of Nazi or Marxist-Leninist totalitarianism and tyranny.
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    (Original post by SaoPaolo90)
    It was a top down approach, and this only really benefits the minority, despite making a country more economically powerful. Those figures are judged by the strength of our economic privileges and fail to take into account our economic hardships. So while she may have sorted big businesses out rather well, she plunged thousands of people into poverty. Those people probably couldn't care less how much of an international power Britain was economically because they suffered in poverty while the rich just got richer.
    Err right so driving when all those workers went on strike during the 'winter of discontent' they actually had wonderful lives and the three day week was a result of great living standards. ******** to that - although many people have been disadvantaged by re-industrialization at the end of the day it has benefited more Britons than not. Fact, and that is why most Britons are not calling for Britain to revert to the Welfare State.
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    (Original post by SaoPaolo90)
    Yes, a political system wanting equality for all is much worse than the Nazi regime for example. What a moronic post.
    The Soviets were worse than the Nazis.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Pretty certain that we didn't. Perhaps Wales is more technologically advanced :p:



    I didn't contradict your position as to her effect on the trade unions did I! Yes she damaged the trade unions to the extent that they no longer really work. My argument was more to do with whether her policies were as groundbreaking as you implied. They weren't.
    You may not admit that her policies were original but there were the only policies of that kind to get through parliament and succeed in changing Britain for the better.
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    (Original post by SaoPaolo90)
    Yes, a political system wanting equality for all is much worse than the Nazi regime for example. What a moronic post.

    They both want to nationalise everything.

    They both advocate dictatorship. :p:

    I think he meant where Socialism has been put into practice..

    If not then yes, that was quite moronic.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    You may not admit that her policies were original but there were the only policies of that kind to get through parliament and succeed in changing Britain for the better.
    I'm not going to "admit" it because it isn't true!

    And perhaps you don't know - I'm from the South Wales coalfield (or rather, the ex-coalfield) - her idea of 'change' included labelling the entire area in which I live the enemy and the people the "enemy within". So please, the idea that she changed Britain for the better is rather toxic for some of us.
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    Ahhh, equality for all. Where some people work harder than others but everyone's equal.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    And every historian agrees with him, yeah?
    Of course not but then you know some people even agree with David Irving!
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    I'm not going to "admit" it because it isn't true!

    And perhaps you don't know - I'm from the South Wales coalfield (or rather, the ex-coalfield) - her idea of 'change' included labelling the entire area in which I live the enemy and the people the "enemy within". So please, the idea that she changed Britain for the better is rather toxic for some of us.
    Ye I am sorry I know South Wales was badly hit by her de-industrialization programs. But in general living standards have improved, just look at the technology now available to everybody. The increased capital flows has allowed New Labor to spend more on healthcare and education - spending which (even though much of it was not cautious spending) would not have been possible if Britain was still sunder a welfare state.

    But back to Thatcher, there is a reason why people hate her - and it is not because her ideas were 'not groundbreaking.'
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    The Soviets were worse than the Nazis.
    Oh please, not this crap again. Why? Because they killed more people? Whoop-de-*******-doo. When you're talking about differences between murders in the millions I think grading them is rather crass.
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    (Original post by dn013)
    Err right so driving when all those workers went on strike during the 'winter of discontent' they actually had wonderful lives and the three day week was a result of great living standards. ******** to that - although many people have been disadvantaged by re-industrialization at the end of the day it has benefited more Britons than not. Fact, and that is why most Britons are not calling for Britain to revert to the Welfare State.

    I didn't say that. She did cause economic hardship for many - look at the city of Liverpool for example. She closed the docks - a major part of our economy - and our unemployment rate shot right up. And blind utilitarianism is no solid basis on which to form a government.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Oh please, not this crap again. Why? Because they killed more people? Whoop-de-*******-doo. When you're talking about differences between murders in the millions I think grading them is rather crass.
    Not just because of that. They were far more totalitarian for one.

    I think it would be quite correct to say that Marxism has been the most evil ideology of all time.
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    Yes, I would support it.

    Why? Robert Owen's utopian socialism wouldn't work, but Tony Benn's democratic socialism involving a large measure of public investment, public expenditure, and public ownership combined with self-management in the workplace, would.

    Not exactly revolutionary, but the corporations need an arse-kicking.
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    (Original post by SaoPaolo90)
    I didn't say that. She did cause economic hardship for many - look at the city of Liverpool for example. She closed the docks - a major part of our economy - and our unemployment rate shot right up. And blind utilitarianism is no solid basis on which to form a government.
    Specific parts of the country suffered, but as a whole the living standards of the UK have improved in all areas. After all there is a reason why all these regions failed, because they were not economically sustainable with government funding - why should tax payers in Devon pay for dock workers in Liverpool who obviously are not as efficient as dock workers in other parts of the region. It was a waste of valuable money.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    Not just because of that. They were far more totalitarian for one.

    I think it would be quite correct to say that Marxism has been the most evil ideology of all time.
    Again: it really wasn't! Pray tell what was the last book you read on the Soviet Union?

    Have you read the work of Sheila Fitzpatrick, Moshe Lewin, J. Arch Getty, Sarah Davies, Lynne Viola and countless others who have demolished this cold war "totalitarian" model of understanding the Soviet Union?

    The fact is the Soviet Union was far more complex than just slating it as "totalitarian" can ever accommodate.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    Not just because of that. They were far more totalitarian for one.
    Don't think that if the Nazis had had to be "more totalitarian" in policy that they wouldn't have done (and I don't see how they were less so except in that they were comparatively under-policed, and they were comparatively under-policed because they were comparatively more supported by ordinary Germans. In all other senses - in terms of the level of dissent permitted - none - the extension of the state into every aspect of daily life, education, etc I could go on but I'm not writing an essay here, they were fairly on par). In ideology and in most aspects of society they were at least as totalitarian as Stalin's USSR.

    Really, what exactly about Nazi policy do you find "less abhorrent" than Stalinist policy?

    I think it would be quite correct to say that Marxism has been the most evil ideology of all time.
    Think however you want. I would amend that to Marxist-Leninism if you wanted to be strict about it, but whatever.
 
 
 
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