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    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    Oh gee, all of you people who are against European integration seem to all express these highly jingoistic ideas that it's laughable. You need to stop thinking of yourself as British, and start thinking of yourself as a person of the world. Furthermore, (and I'm not going on as much as I could do), as it stands Britain had already been *******ised by American culture. Frankly, you should all be grateful to become further integrated with countries such as Germany and France that still maintain a great deal more dignity and culture than the modern Britain. We should be on our hands and knees begging to become part of a Federal Europe.

    And to Mr, Froggy if he happens to be reading this. The UK has no great influence in the world these days; don't delude yourself with your passionate nationalistic feelings. We lost any significant influence after WW2 and the fall of the British empire. The only superpowers to emerge were Russia and the US. To further my argument, by the middle of this century China is supposed to have the largest economy in the world, putting the UK even further down the list. I also highly doubt that we are even the 5th largest economy present day, what with escalating government debts (which it can largely blame the Thatcher era for, when she decided to privatise everything).
    Im not jingoistic I wouldn't support war with other EU nations or anything like that. May I ask how I am meant to think of myself as a person of the world? Have you seen the world? Its nothing like the UK its people all have different traditions and cultures, it's not possible to consider myself one of them. Have you been to the USA it has many differences in culture you know. Plus if we have a culture more like the americans then why shouldn't we become the 51st state instead of joining a european federation?

    Im curious just what nations do you think have power and influence in the world, could you name them please and say why they are more influential and powerful than we are?

    I did not claim that Britain was a superpower it is however undeniably still a great power. Besides even if we slip to 10th place in terms of economy and our military gets messed up it doesn't mean other nations will stop trading with us freely and NATO will defend us.
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    Instead of being a part of a fully integrated federal European state, I would rather we integrate into the United States as a fully fledged state like Texas and California.

    At least with the United States, we both speak the same language - which is very important in the long-term. Plus, we would get to benefit from the United States Constitution and its protections.
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    The difference in cultures between European countries would make the system pretty chaotic, as everyone would have a different vision for the future, and it would lead to the continuous infighting that has dogged any 'League of Nations', such as the current EU. Perhaps that's just my biased view as a moderate Nationalist though
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    I am British, yes, and yet I am by no means proud of it. Those of you who are so quick to boast about Britain's influence and British culture (we no longer really have a culture), you must first recognise all of the things that are still wrong in the country. It's capitalist. Fail. Its MPs like in any other country are corruptable, and putrid. Fail. The justice and welfare systems are nonsensical. Fail. And as for the Americanisation of our culture, don't even tempt me to write you en essay that is more formal and systematic. Once, British culture brought to mind a civilised society; being the first European state to politically revolutionise (Charles I beheading in 1649), and the first to revolutionise industrially. In the Victorian and Edwardian eras we were once about having the 'British' stiff upper lip.

    Our culture has now degenerated into nothing, it has become rotten and putrified. We are simply an ex superpower who now sits at the global dinner table like an old man that gasps and groans about how great it used to be. Do you not think that it is mostly out of respect that America even entertains Britain, especially as we are one of its founders. In the 21st century, Britain stands as a hasbeen, and are nothing now but sycophantic towards America. Because we are no longer a leading nation, we soak up American values and American culture. Have you watched a television lately? Mostly all entertainment shows are (and here is the stress in my voice American. Scrubs, Friends, Family Guy, House, etc, etc, etc. Mostly all of the music on television, again ... it's American? And yet, do you think that Americans sit at home and contemplate how 'AWESOME' Primevil is or Eastenders? My God, man, they haven't even heard of those programmes. If you mention 'Dizzee Rascal' to one, they might think you're making a reference to an urban clothes range before they consider he might be a 'singer' (not that I particularly like Dizzee Rascal).

    Now, let's look at American companies . Starbucks, McDonalds, Burger King, ASDA, and Esso. Each time you spend your cash there, the profits go to mostly American shareholders. One is putting money into a foreign country. Let's think about how many businesses have cracked America? I believe Marks&Spencers tried once upon a time, but the venture ended in failure.

    I'm talking about a one way system. Britain has no great culture left, not one that isn't being spoonfed back to it by America. So those who have mentioned becoming a 51st state ... em ... show some respect for yourself?

    I am for further EU integration, yes, because I believe it would be good for the future of Britain. With one economy, Europe either rises or falls together. If war breaks out, Europe either falls or survives as one. I am personally very anti-war, so those of you are boasting about how many nukes we have make me feel a little bit sick, and your dull intelligence makes my stomach curdle even more. You sound like scally rascals who point out the number of guys they have beaten up. "BRITAIN IS GLORIOUS, WE HAVE NUKES, WE HAVE CULTURE, WE NEED TO KEEP A HOLD OF IT". Umm... well no.

    UKIP? You're a dolt, sir. Your time and effort would be spent more wisely with a less xenophobic party whose policies focus less on hatred for Europe and more on the problems we have in society. The wealth in this country is still held by the smaller portion of the population, for example. Not that I'm going to entertain Marxist arguments today.

    To sum it up, all I'm really making an argument against is those people who want to maintain British independence. I want you to realise that we no longer have any independence; we have moved from a country that influences to a country that is being influenced and swayed by other far superior countries. So, if you want to be a part of an impressive country (I imagine you do, because you're quick to boast about keeping Britain independent as it has the '2ND GREATEST MIILITARY IN THE WOOOOORLD'), then you might as well become a part of a Federal Europe. Europe, if counted together, would be the only entity in the world with more power than America.

    Do you know that the European nations petitioned America to join up to the Kyoto Protocol with them, in order to reduce carbon emissions? America stuck its fingers up at Britain and Europe.

    Anyway, so yes, let's move away from Europe and become a 51st state, a small satellite in orbit around the great American empire. Why not. Are we not already?

    :woo:
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    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    I am British, yes, and yet I am by no means proud of it. Those of you who are so quick to boast about Britain's influence and British culture (we no longer really have a culture), you must first recognise all of the things that are still wrong in the country. It's capitalist. Fail. Its MPs like in any other country are corruptable, and putrid. Fail. The justice and welfare systems are nonsensical. Fail.
    We have a vibrant multicultural Britain. Isn't that what our pro-EU politicians have been striving for all these years? Westminster is most certainly corrupt but its corruption is on a much smaller scale than EU corruption. How are our justice and welfare systems, and our culture to be improved by further European integration?

    Now, let's look at American companies . Starbucks, McDonalds, Burger King, ASDA, and Esso. Each time you spend your cash there, the profits go to mostly American shareholders. One is putting money into a foreign country. Let's think about how many businesses have cracked America? I believe Marks&Spencers tried once upon a time, but the venture ended in failure.
    Not many British companies have cracked continental Europe either. And even then those that have only wave a British flag when it suits them.


    I am for further EU integration, yes, because I believe it would be good for the future of Britain. With one economy, Europe either rises or falls together. If war breaks out, Europe either falls or survives as one. I am personally very anti-war ...
    I don't want to become the 51st state either, but I am against further EU integration. I don't want my future tied to the success or failure of an anti-democratic, corrupt state that is far removed from its citizens.

    UKIP? You're a dolt, sir. Your time and effort would be spent more wisely with a less xenophobic party whose policies focus less on hatred for Europe and more on the problems we have in society. The wealth in this country is still held by the smaller portion of the population, for example. Not that I'm going to entertain Marxist arguments today.
    You, sir, are the dolt. An anti-EU position is as reasonable a position as a pro-EU one. And UKIP is in no way xenophobic, unless of course you can explain why to want to be an independent democratic country, trading freely around the world, is to be so.

    To sum it up, all I'm really making an argument against is those people who want to maintain British independence. I want you to realise that we no longer have any independence; we have moved from a country that influences to a country that is being influenced and swayed by other far superior countries. So, if you want to be a part of an impressive country ...
    Your argument is flawed. The EU isn't impressive. And as the EU isn't democratic, I want to know what it plans to do with this power, what it wants to do with its armed forces, what it expects from its citizens, what its citizens can expect in return, because I'm not signing what amounts to a blank cheque unless we are told. You say you are anti-war. Fine, but what if the EU is not anti-war in the future? What then?

    Do you know that the European nations petitioned America to join up to the Kyoto Protocol with them, in order to reduce carbon emissions? America stuck its fingers up at Britain and Europe.
    The EU cares about the environment in its own special hypocritical fashion. Let's see it keep its puppet parliament on one site to reduce its own emissions. [Moving it from Brussels to Strasbourg every month to appease French vanity results in an extra 20,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide every year.] Anyone would think the EU is the only outfit to care about the environment. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, so yes, let's move away from Europe and become a 51st state, a small satellite in orbit around the great American empire. Why not. Are we not already?
    No, the UK follows its own course. Recent governments have chosen to support the US. Future governments in an independent country may choose differently. Future administrators [and we can hardly call them "governments"] will be legally bound to do as the EU majority want them to regardless of what you or I think. See the difference?
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    It would never happen to the UK. De jure, possibly, but de facto, never. The Brits would still see themselves as having their own country.
    Indeed. A lot of Brits can't even accept that their own home nation isn't a country anymore. And that's been the case for at least 200 odd years.
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    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    I am British, yes, and yet I am by no means proud of it. Those of you who are so quick to boast about Britain's influence and British culture (we no longer really have a culture), you must first recognise all of the things that are still wrong in the country. It's capitalist. Fail. Its MPs like in any other country are corruptable, and putrid. Fail. The justice and welfare systems are nonsensical. Fail. And as for the Americanisation of our culture, don't even tempt me to write you en essay that is more formal and systematic. Once, British culture brought to mind a civilised society; being the first European state to politically revolutionise (Charles I beheading in 1649), and the first to revolutionise industrially. In the Victorian and Edwardian eras we were once about having the 'British' stiff upper lip.
    The short answer to this is if you hate Britain so much then leave and go to france or some other european country. Great Britain has a mixed economy as do the other EU countries. Euro MPs are far more corrupt plus they are exempt from prosecution in all EU countries not to mention that OLAF only investigates around 1% of all illegal activities reported to it in the first place. How would the EU improve justice and welfare?


    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    Our culture has now degenerated into nothing, it has become rotten and putrified. We are simply an ex superpower who now sits at the global dinner table like an old man that gasps and groans about how great it used to be. Do you not think that it is mostly out of respect that America even entertains Britain, especially as we are one of its founders. In the 21st century, Britain stands as a hasbeen, and are nothing now but sycophantic towards America. Because we are no longer a leading nation, we soak up American values and American culture. Have you watched a television lately? Mostly all entertainment shows are (and here is the stress in my voice American. Scrubs, Friends, Family Guy, House, etc, etc, etc. Mostly all of the music on television, again ... it's American? And yet, do you think that Americans sit at home and contemplate how 'AWESOME' Primevil is or Eastenders? My God, man, they haven't even heard of those programmes. If you mention 'Dizzee Rascal' to one, they might think you're making a reference to an urban clothes range before they consider he might be a 'singer' (not that I particularly like Dizzee Rascal).
    We have our own policies, we support america in most cases because we agree with them they are in the right. In most cases france and the other europeans are in the wrong. I have met americans over the net who are fans of doctor who, yes minister, absolutely fabulous and others. The english speaking nations share their culture and their entertainers a lot I can name as many British/Canadian/Australian singers who are big in america as you can name americans who are big here. Most of this is just your ill informed opinion with no facts to back it up.


    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    Now, let's look at American companies . Starbucks, McDonalds, Burger King, ASDA, and Esso. Each time you spend your cash there, the profits go to mostly American shareholders. One is putting money into a foreign country. Let's think about how many businesses have cracked America? I believe Marks&Spencers tried once upon a time, but the venture ended in failure.

    I'm talking about a one way system. Britain has no great culture left, not one that isn't being spoonfed back to it by America. So those who have mentioned becoming a 51st state ... em ... show some respect for yourself?
    Your point? Will the EU force american companies to leave? I prefer what we have now to accepting french and german culture in its place. Maybe you should show some respect for yourself and stop saying we should become the slaves of other europeans.

    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    I am for further EU integration, yes, because I believe it would be good for the future of Britain. With one economy, Europe either rises or falls together. If war breaks out, Europe either falls or survives as one. I am personally very anti-war, so those of you are boasting about how many nukes we have make me feel a little bit sick, and your dull intelligence makes my stomach curdle even more. You sound like scally rascals who point out the number of guys they have beaten up. "BRITAIN IS GLORIOUS, WE HAVE NUKES, WE HAVE CULTURE, WE NEED TO KEEP A HOLD OF IT". Umm... well no.
    Being richer than most of europe we have a better chance of rising by ourselves than we do with the EU. We have NATO to guarantee our security and it is much more effective than any euro military would be. Being pro-war doesn't make you bad it depends on the wars you support and all recent British wars have been defensive or to remove murderers from power. We do not point out how many guys we have beat up but how many people we have helped using our power.

    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    UKIP? You're a dolt, sir. Your time and effort would be spent more wisely with a less xenophobic party whose policies focus less on hatred for Europe and more on the problems we have in society. The wealth in this country is still held by the smaller portion of the population, for example. Not that I'm going to entertain Marxist arguments today.
    Ah the standard europhile tactic, brand all opponents xenophobes or racists with absolutely no evidence to support such claims. UKIP is the fourth largest political party in the UK and has policies on everything the other parties do. So your a lefty? Well your vote for labour means more domestically than it ever would for a european socialist party.

    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    To sum it up, all I'm really making an argument against is those people who want to maintain British independence. I want you to realise that we no longer have any independence; we have moved from a country that influences to a country that is being influenced and swayed by other far superior countries. So, if you want to be a part of an impressive country (I imagine you do, because you're quick to boast about keeping Britain independent as it has the '2ND GREATEST MIILITARY IN THE WOOOOORLD'), then you might as well become a part of a Federal Europe. Europe, if counted together, would be the only entity in the world with more power than America.
    We no longer have independence because the EU makes 75% of laws for this country. You still have not named these other countries that influence us you just believe for whatever reason that america is bad. Britain is impressive, sink its power in europe and we mean nothing. If we joined a european superstate it would be foreigners who would have all the power it would be 60 million Brits vs 440 million europeans it wouldn't be our power it would be theirs. In short I trust americans much more than other europeans.

    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    Do you know that the European nations petitioned America to join up to the Kyoto Protocol with them, in order to reduce carbon emissions? America stuck its fingers up at Britain and Europe.
    No it didn't stick its fingers up it just said no which it has every right to do.
    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    Anyway, so yes, let's move away from Europe and become a 51st state, a small satellite in orbit around the great American empire. Why not. Are we not already?
    No we are currently partially controlled by the EU we are completely independent of the USA we just happen to have a similar world view to it.
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    I don't agree with much of what you have to say, but you at least you (and I can't say the same for the others), at least you have an argument that is analytical and still makes sense to my ears. I'd still support one European government to rule us all, in order to avoid any European in-fighting or wars in the future. I'd also personally be proud to say that Paris or any other European city, town, small hamlet was part of my national identity. I see your counter-argument clearly. I particularly respect:

    (Original post by Tamora)
    'I want to know what it plans to do with this power, what it wants to do with its armed forces, what it expects from its citizens, what its citizens can expect in return, because I'm not signing what amounts to a blank cheque unless we are told. You say you are anti-war. Fine, but what if the EU is not anti-war in the future? What then?'
    However, much of everything else you said ... it wasn't particularly well put down and I'm afraid to say it hasn't turned me away from my polemical position. I guess I'm still at odds with much of your argument. Mine wasn't a pro-EU argument, it was simply a counter argument for those that spoke about keeping Britain independent because it is 'great', and 'influential'. To me, I see that as tosh, and I suppose it stirred up a whining passion in me.

    Must dash. I might post again when I have time.
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    To all those who would support a European Federation, and thus the increasing centralisation of power - would you support a world federation, where politics was centralised even more?

    If not, why not? Why do you feel Europe is the appropiate point to draw the line?

    Do none of you think that maybe the smaller, and more local a government, the more it truly represents the people under its authority?
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    To all those who would support a European Federation, and thus the increasing centralisation of power - would you support a world federation, where politics was centralised even more?

    If not, why not? Why do you feel Europe is the appropiate point to draw the line?

    Do none of you think that maybe the smaller, and more local a government, the more it truly represents the people under its authority?
    I am not a federalist, but I do reject the notion of sovereignty as more or less irrelevant today, particularly where the EU is concerned. I am also a localist - I believe in greater devolution of power too - what matters is where it is most effectively exercised.

    As for a world federation - perhaps of sorts. Although, of course, we already have that to an extent with the UN which has laws and regulations which it applies globally as well as handing wide ranging powers to an institution (the Security Council) to police and provide for international peace and security.

    Essentially I would like to see a bit more of that global co-operation where it is effective. Logistically, however, it's not easy: with greater power comes a greater need for legitimacy. It would be more or less impossible to create a globally democratic body - a UN Parliament essentially - which drastically limits the use of such a body.
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    "How to Start & Train a Militia Unit - PM 8--94.pdf"

    How to Start and Train a Militia Unit

    by Maj. George Westmoreland, USMC Ret
    (c) 1994
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    "How to Start & Train a Militia Unit - PM 8--94.pdf"

    How to Start and Train a Militia Unit

    by Maj. George Westmoreland, USMC Ret
    (c) 1994
    I'm reading this just in case either Sharia Law comes or Britain is disolved into the new European Nation.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    I'm reading this just in case either Sharia Law comes or Britain is disolved into the new European Nation.
    Where did you get it from? I have a whole ton of pdfs like this.
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    Where did you get it from? I have a whole ton of pdfs like this.
    I just typed the title into google and it was the first link.

    Can you please PM me some of them, if possible?

    Thanks.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    I just typed the title into google and it was the first link.

    Can you please PM me some of them, if possible?

    Thanks.
    PM me your email and I will attach them for you.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    I'm reading this just in case either Sharia Law comes or Britain is disolved into the new European Nation.
    How Christian of you :rolleyes:

    To the OP do you love Britain? Do you feel happy to be a part of this country ? Are you for destroying "a thousand years of history" ?
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    (Original post by dannymccormick)
    I don't agree with much of what you have to say, but you at least you (and I can't say the same for the others), at least you have an argument that is analytical and still makes sense to my ears. I'd still support one European government to rule us all, in order to avoid any European in-fighting or wars in the future. I'd also personally be proud to say that Paris or any other European city, town, small hamlet was part of my national identity. I see your counter-argument clearly. I particularly respect:

    However, much of everything else you said ... it wasn't particularly well put down and I'm afraid to say it hasn't turned me away from my polemical position. I guess I'm still at odds with much of your argument. Mine wasn't a pro-EU argument, it was simply a counter argument for those that spoke about keeping Britain independent because it is 'great', and 'influential'. To me, I see that as tosh, and I suppose it stirred up a whining passion in me.

    Must dash. I might post again when I have time.
    I'm still at odds with your arguments. I don't think placing people into a political union (and an undemocratic, corrupt one, with growing police state tendencies) without their informed consent is the way to prevent wars or in-fighting in the future. Trouble in the future lies, perhaps not between european member states, but probably between rulers and people.

    Perhaps you could consider some of the less well advertised aspects of the EU until have the time to post.

    Like its new and growing paramilitary police force, the EU Gendarmerie Force (EGF), which the EU's own High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy, says will cover "activities such as security and public order missions". What price civil unrest?

    And the EU's single area for justice, in which under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, its public prosecutor can request that a suspect is detained without trial for 6 months, renewable for 3 months again and again without limit.
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    Like its new and growing paramilitary police force, the EU Gendarmerie Force (EGF), which the EU's own High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy, says will cover "activities such as security and public order missions". What price civil unrest?

    And the EU's single area for justice, in which under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, its public prosecutor can request that a suspect is detained without trial for 6 months, renewable for 3 months again and again without limit.
    Neither of which involve Britain. Indeed, the EGF is only an initiative of six countries that happen to be member-states.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Neither of which involve Britain. Indeed, the EGF is only an initiative of six countries that happen to be member-states.
    That's true, but our new Europe minister has nevertheless refused to rule out the possibility of the EGF being used in Britain. He has only said it's "extremely unlikely". That's not good enough for me.

    And the second, the single area for justice, will involve the UK once the red line in Justice and Home Affairs is dissolved.

    What price civil unrest?
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    "I like the French - they make old conservatives nervous and then give them gout" - The Now Show
 
 
 
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