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Real heroes: soldier refuses to return to Afghanistan Watch

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    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    I

    Ok, I'll assume you're a mature student, who's doing a degree while working.
    A majority of the members in this forum are 'proper' students, ie: haven't properly left the education system yet and are all very young. So if i'm right, and I may not be, you're a matured adult who comes online to argue with students and teens?

    There you go making idiotic assumptions again:rolleyes:

    I am actually 21 years old (yes i was your age when i joined up )
    I will be starting a full time degree in International Relations next year. Also age doesn't mean a thing if you want to go to university, you could be 80 years old and still attend a uni course full time. I come on this website, not only because it is probably the best resource a British student could use when applying to uni. But also because there is a vast magnitude of intelligent people who use this forum to discuss their views and ideaologies. You are not one of these intelligent people i am afraid :dontknow:
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I never said you couldn't take this stand point. Instead i dissagreed heavily with your assumptions, accusations and arrogance. Which coincidently was all based on bull-****. You accused a serving British soldier who has been on more thann one operational tour of being a coward. I disagree with you calling him that, seeing as the only experience of a warzone you have is what you see on your computer and TV.

    Then you proceed to assume you were in a better position to comment on forces life and routine than i was without considering that there might be ex-forces on this website (and im not the only one ) considering that being a student does not depend on age. So i countered your gross overestimisations of yourself with my service record and first hand experience.
    You can save a life, then murder someone. Does that not still make you a murderer? I simply do not believe that the reasons he doesn't want to go are simply because he objects politically, would he not have objcted first time that the war was unjust? If he opposed going out there so much, why not do everything possible to ensure he doesn't as soon as he can (whether he is still bound by contract or not), why wait until he's about to be deployed to start making noises? Just because he has done tours before (which are respectable, I don't dispute that) his current actions I feel because of the doubts I expressed above, are cowardly.

    Does that make more sense?

    Oh and there was me thinking fivefivesix was a fan of dress up (crosses fingers and hopes that he did/is serving)...

    Oh and it's not a case of self overestimation, I just comment seriously when I feel seriously about something. And I still don't agree with you.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I never said you couldn't take this stand point. Instead i dissagreed heavily with your assumptions, accusations and arrogance. Which coincidently was all based on bull-****. You accused a serving British soldier who has been on more thann one operational tour of being a coward. I disagree with you calling him that, seeing as the only experience of a warzone you have is what you see on your computer and TV.

    Then you proceed to assume you were in a better position to comment on forces life and routine than i was without considering that there might be ex-forces on this website (and im not the only one ) considering that being a student does not depend on age. So i countered your gross overestimisations of yourself with my service record and first hand experience.
    To be honest, you've thoroughly dismissed his 'arguments' as comprehensively as one could. It's been rather interesting following the exchanges :yep:
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    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    You can save a life, then murder someone. Does that not still make you a murderer? I simply do not believe that the reasons he doesn't want to go are simply because he objects politically, would he not have objcted first time that the war was unjust? If he opposed going out there so much, why not do everything possible to ensure he doesn't as soon as he can (whether he is still bound by contract or not), why wait until he's about to be deployed to start making noises? Just because he has done tours before (which are respectable, I don't dispute that) his current actions I feel because of the doubts I expressed above, are cowardly.

    Does that make more sense?

    No it makes even less sense. Take into account what a traumatic, life changing experience a tour in Afghanistan or Iraq is. Do you seriously think these guys come back thinking the same things that they thought going away.

    This bloke could have had these feelings all along and ket them hidden for precisely the reasons you have bought up. But whi is to say he did not witness something in Afghanistan that forced him to confront his feelings and build up the courage to voice them. It is people whith your mindset who would have accused shellshocked soldiers in WW1 of cowardice and shot them in the back.

    Oh and there was me thinking fivefivesix was a fan of dress up (crosses fingers and hopes that he did/is serving)...
    Do you want to be shot down by two servicemen in one day??

    Oh and it's not a case of self overestimation, I just comment seriously when I feel seriously about something. And I still don't agree with you.
    You may comment seriously but you evidently do not think seriously about your serious comments :dunce:
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    There you go making idiotic assumptions again:rolleyes:

    I am actually 21 years old (yes i was your age when i joined up )
    I will be starting a full time degree in International Relations next year. Also age doesn't mean a thing if you want to go to university, you could be 80 years old and still attend a uni course full time. I come on this website, not only because it is probably the best resource a British student could use when applying to uni. But also because there is a vast magnitude of intelligent people who use this forum to discuss their views and ideaologies. You are not one of these intelligent people i am afraid :dontknow:
    I did say I might not be, perhaps you should read a bit more carefully next time

    I bet the navy misses you...

    That's a bit of a primitive insult from someone who claims to be more intelligent. Tbh you're more of a **** than I am or could ever aim to be.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    No it makes even less sense. Take into account what a traumatic, life changing experience a tour in Afghanistan or Iraq is. Do you seriously think these guys come back thinking the same things that they thought going away.

    This bloke could have had these feelings all along and ket them hidden for precisely the reasons you have bought up. But whi is to say he did not witness something in Afghanistan that forced him to confront his feelings and build up the courage to voice them. It is people whith your mindset who would have accused shellshocked soldiers in WW1 of cowardice and shot them in the back.

    [B] I don't think I wouldv'e bcause that condition was a tad mroe obvious than waiting until you find out you're going on tour (which was obvious really) then deciding you don't want to go and doing your utmost to get media attention and gain sympathy.

    Do you want to be shot down by two servicemen in one day??

    Sorry, could you not sense the sarcasm? I do know fivefivesix has a service record and the bracketed bit meaning that I hope i'm right or you'll jump on me for it. Instead you were too thick to take it at anything more than face value.



    You may comment seriously but you evidently do not think seriously about your serious comments :dunce:

    Nor do you
    While we're now starting to just wind each other up than simply make points...

    International Relations...would that be in an attempt to develop the negotiating skills and understanding to get your iPod back off of the Iranians?
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    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    While we're now starting to just wind each other up than simply make points...

    International Relations...would that be in an attempt to develop the negotiating skills and understanding to get your iPod back off of the Iranians?

    I think it's a bit too late to make a frankly pathetic attempt at forces banter. You have made your feelings towards those who serve quite clear.
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    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    While we're now starting to just wind each other up than simply make points...

    International Relations...would that be in an attempt to develop the negotiating skills and understanding to get your iPod back off of the Iranians?
    Jesus son, put the shovel down and step away from the hole.

    Firstly, despite whether you agree with Aeolus or not, you owe him an apology for making such a massive (wrong) assumption about his character. Disagree with him all you like, but if you're going to call his honour, character, bravery and integrity into question, and be proved wrong, at least have the common courtesy to admit you were wrong, and apologise like a man. You've just lost any credibility you may have thought you had.

    Secondly, so you're a pad brat and you take everything daddy says, or you read on ARRSE (it's pretty obvious really) as gospel. Congratulations. More fool you.

    Thirdly, making disparaging remarks intended to be humourous about other members of the Forces is only generally only accepted if you belong to the club. You don't, therefore you're in no position to comment on things like the iPod incident, since you're hardly likely to encounter such a situation yourself, and you have no experience to mock the actions of better trained and more tactically-minded people than you. Civvies can't partake in inter-service banter by very definition. If I were to make a joke about iPods, that would be fine, and I'd expect something similar in return. Sorry sunshine, that's just how it works.

    You're not big, you're not clever, and you're certainly not funny. Now either man up and apologise, wind your neck in and **** off, or continue to demonstrate what a massive turd you are, and carry on. Your call, sweetheart.
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    They spelt Royal Logistic Corps wrong twice in this article. Poor form.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/8353610.stm
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    (Original post by Lee90)
    he should be court marshalled

    also, he in the royal logistics...seriously, he just sits in a chair a hundred miles from the fighting and watchs it take place. (i know thats an exageration, just trying to make a point) experiance my arse
    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    Where have you served and what capbadge did you wear by the way?
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    I guess the Texas shooting showed most Americans its better to stay behind than invade a foreign country.
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    He should be court martialled. He has no right to disobey orders. When he signed up he signed up to serve Queen and Country until he was told to leave. I have respect that he has fought, but he has become a coward.

    Also who is best to work out how to strategy is going. A low NCO or the officers in charge.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    He should be court martialled. He has no right to disobey orders. When he signed up he signed up to serve Queen and Country until he was told to leave. I have respect that he has fought, but he has become a coward.
    You don't know what your talking about. Just because you sign up to serve the queen does not mean you jettison your moral compasss. I have no respect for those that follow orders blindly and without question, robots who use their service as an excuse to ignorantly play a part in something terrible. Those who refuse to fight have more to fear from the military justice system. If a soldier does not agree with why he is fighting then he should be allowed to voluntarily cease being a soldier. He may sign up to serve but that doesn't mean the queen or the state owns him.

    Also who is best to work out how to strategy is going. A low NCO or the officers in charge.

    Oh yes, because their strategy has really been working thus far :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Aeolus)




    Oh yes, because their strategy has really been working thus far :rolleyes:
    Well the strategy is working, the Talibans power is waning, the Generals have started to put a time on when we are supposed to pull out etc.

    Also I have nothing against a soldier who questions orders when they are morally wrong. However this is different.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Well the strategy is working, the Talibans power is waning, the Generals have started to put a time on when we are supposed to pull out etc.
    Really? you obviously don't keep yourself read up on the conflict. The Taliban are more dangerous than they were in 2003, they have learnt and adapted to the coalition as well as waging a propoganda war using the internet and television, there was an interesting article today in the times. They are fighting hit and run guerilla style while leaving countless IED's each one more advanced than the next, and aas we saw from the tragedy last week, they are now inflitrating the ANA. There is a very good reason 71% of Afghans want reconciliation with anti government groups. Even president Karzai has invited Mullah Omar to the negotiating table and asked demanded a forces withdrarwel plan from the UN. It's because the war isn't being won and can't be won with force, no matter how many troops we put in the country. I agree with President Karzai and 71% of the Afghan people in that Afghanistan need an Afghan solution with our help, in the form of dollars not bullets. Destroying the infrastructure of their country and then neglecting to rebuild it has, and will continue to turn the Afghan peoplle againnst us. Especially the Pashtun majority.

    Also I have nothing against a soldier who questions orders when they are morally wrong. However this is different.
    Why is it different? I wasn't aware that there was a personally specific set of morals adhered to by everybody...
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    (Original post by Aeolus)


    Why is it different? I wasn't aware that there was a personally specific set of morals adhered to by everybody...
    It is different because he isn't being asked to do something like directly kill school children, he is simply being ordered to fight the taliban.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    It is different because he isn't being asked to do something like directly kill school children, he is simply being ordered to fight the taliban.

    But he may follow different personal morals to you. Who are you to tell him what he should think is wrong and right?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But he may follow different personal morals to you. Who are you to tell him what he should think is wrong and right?
    THere are strict laws stating when a soldier can questions his orders (don't ask me which ones) and strict laws relating to when the act of a soldier is illegal. So it is set down in law.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    THere are strict laws stating when a soldier can questions his orders (don't ask me which ones) and strict laws relating to when the act of a soldier is illegal. So it is set down in law.
    That doesn't mean anything and is open to heavy manipulation. This war in Afghanistan is to complicated to simply be goodies vs baddies. The reasons we are there are murky enough, and if a soldier wants to question his orders and refuse them then so be it. It does not make him a coward. I can assure you that the consequences for disobeying a direct order and absent without leave are far more long ranging and damaging than a tour in Afghanistan.

    Up until 1998 it was a strict law that no homosexual be allowed to serve in the armed forces, and if a serviceman or woman discovered he or she was a homosexual they would be instantly discharged.

    Laws should be challenged especially outdated military ones.
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    (Original post by burningnun)
    His unit still has to go and now they will be shorthanded and the idiots here think he's a hero?

    I don't have to walk a mile in anyone's shoes to know that that is bullcrap.
    Agreed. The war may be wrong, but a soldier signs up knowing that he will have to fight in any war he is sent to regardless of personal feelings. Allowing people to pick and choose is a recipe for disaster. I can't pretend to understand what it is like out there but deserting your platoon when you are not either seriously mentally or physically ill is shameful. The army is supposed to be about teamwork, surely, and looking out for everyone else.
 
 
 
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