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"...Western society will either die out or be Islamised" Watch

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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    According to thier logic, if islam is posion due to a few idiots, then god knows what christianity is due to one man, Adolf Hitler.
    I see what you're saying but Hitler actually despised all religion which is why he made his own. However what you were trying to say is right. It's stupid to create such stereotypes and just makes people seem idiotic.
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    (Original post by Gap)

    It's the race card that gets pulled out all too often in the UK and everyone is all too willing to lay their cards down in order to accomadate Muslims in order to not be seen as a racist. I see Mosques popping up in the UK but where's the churches going up in the Middle East?

    where do you think the coptic christians in the middle east worship ? in mosques? they will of course have churches to cater for the christian demographic.
    by the way, im not trying to defend the mid-east way of life, as we all know that major issues still exist over there for equality and human rights and all that.
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    :five:
    To think i'm strongly agreeing with you

    Ah well, unlike Labour i'm a true Liberal
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    (Original post by starsdream2)
    No it just wouldn't be the same :p:
    ok but I would have tried really hard :sad:
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    (Original post by starsdream2)
    That is not just the argument made by Muslim people but rather people who value freedom. You cannot say you are a liberating someone from the chains of oppression by forcing them not to do something.

    Who is 'we' I have lived in England all my life and do not share that opinion, like many people other people. Surely you mean people who are opposed to the burkha? If the woman wants to be invisible I fail to see how that is an issue. I see everyone regardless of what they are wearing as a 'full human' If someone is unable to interact with someone because of what they want to wear, then that is their own personal prejudice coming into play. You talk about your 'culture' I consider myself to be part of that culture and whilst I agree about how it prevents people from seeing facial expressions and the like I personally am willing to forgo that again this as that is what these people want to wear.. The whole banning of the burkha is very vague as you can have burkhas without the face veil

    A woman who chooses to wear the burkha has as much right as a woman who chooses to wear a mini skirt. Arguments can be raised about both items of clothing regarding how oppressive they are.
    The women who wear these pieces of clothing are expressing a point about themselves. Many feel it liberates them from having to be judged purely on what they were or how attractive they are they feel rather that by donning such clothing people will see them for their minds. Whilst some may agree with that and others don’t, it again comes down to personal choice. Britain is a democracy where people are free to do what they wish as long as it does not harm others and I personally think by banning something you’re taking away that very freedom so many people fight for.
    Like I said before instead of banning the burkha why make it so that people who come to this country are educated in such a way that they will not want to wear it.

    .
    It's a good question who the 'we' are, and the one from which politics must start from, and getting clear about it is important to this discussion. Although the way you phrase it I sense you don't feel that there is a 'we', or at least your sense of it is muddled. I would say that the 'we' is the people who are members of our society who feel that they belong together, and that sense of belonging is pre-political, the people included in the 'we' believe in a common destiny. That is the way in which most societies have successfully existed.

    Again like most discussions about modern culture this one has come down to a matter of 'rights' - no mention of responsibility of course - such as the responsibility to conform to the social norms of the culture you are moving to, in order to ease the inevitable frictions that will otherwise take place.

    Britain is a democracy where people are free to do what they wish as long as it does not harm others and I personally think by banning something you’re taking away that very freedom so many people fight for.
    To that I would say no, from the fact we are a democracy it does not follow that people can do absolutely as they wish, there are social rules and conventions that we adhere to as we go about our daily lives, ways in which we dress and ways in which we act towards strangers - all cultures have these. And are very sensitive to sudden changes in these.

    And the 'harm' idea is a good point - again going back to JSM, the idea that by wearing a burka you are not harming anyone, well to that I would say that you are harming wider society. People often argue that our society is in trouble because it is increasingly fragmenting, is it not the case that the increasing prominence of the burka in our towns and cities is exactly the kind of thing that contributes to this sense of fragmentation? As increasingly in our inner cities we find the excluding sights and sounds of the ghetto? To the extent that someone wearing a skirt will feel disapproving eyes up her when she walks around certain areas of East London - this implication here of course is a loss of control of the area from the English people, it is no longer England as it was known but now belongs to another culture.
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    What's your point?



    How is he a racist?
    This is not a broad opinions, a broad belief. It is the writing of one man, and being displayed by a few sick muslims.
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    What's your point?



    How is he a racist?
    Before asking such a patheticly stupid question go read some of his/her earlier posts and then fade away to stop yourself looking like even more of the idiot you just made yourself out to be.

    I'm sorry but how people can engage in a debate without reading what people have said is just annoyingly stupid.

    Yes I am cranky but seriously go read what he said and you will see how :p:
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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    According to thier logic, if islam is posion due to a few idiots, then god knows what christianity is due to one man, Adolf Hitler.
    Hitler wasn't a Christian, or certainly didn't use it as the core of his beliefs and actions.

    "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity."

    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941.

    Oh, and I call Godwin's law.
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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    The fact that you misquoted the quran, went out of your way to paste it, your the lowest of the low. You are spreading lies.

    It is like me saying to someone to lose weight, eat double, but excercise 10 times as much.

    You have come along telling the world i said eat double and you will lose weight making me sound stupid.

    If your going to quote it, do it right. Pathetic individual.
    No I haven't. Here is the link. It is an annotated copy of the Koran (original text only quoted) published in Saudi Arabia by two Islamic scholars called Dr Muhammed Taqi-ud Din Al-Hilali and Dr Muhammed Mushin Khan. The scanned pages are right in front of you and it's from google books which is a fair source - I seriously doubt they tamper with books before scanning them. Again, click on that link and scroll down 1 page and you will see what I quoted word to word.

    Don't accuse me of lying when the evidence is sat in your face.

    I have quoted a specific section but you can read what is above it and below it and see it is not taken out of context.
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    To think i'm strongly agreeing with you

    Ah well, unlike Labour i'm a true Liberal
    Indeed, liberal democrats and libertarians have far more in common than labour and libertarians do.

    Nick Clegg himself is a market-liberal. :yep:
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    (Original post by Liverpool F.C.™)
    Mother ******* have nothing better to do except run their mouths on an internet forum.
    The average citizen, made to be, blind to the reason


    The voice of racism preaching the gospel is devilish
    A fake church called the prophet Muhammad a terrorist
    Forgetting God is not a religion, but a spiritual bond
    And Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qu'ran.

    :awesome:
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    (Original post by starsdream2)
    Before asking such a patheticly stupid question go read some of his/her earlier posts and then fade away to stop yourself looking like even more of the idiot you just made yourself out to be.

    I'm sorry but how people can engage in a debate without reading what people have said is just annoyingly stupid.

    Yes I am cranky but seriously go read what he said and you will see how :p:
    I've read most of his posts, and I cannot see anything which could be described as racist. Care to provide me with an example, or is your brain incapable of carrying out this task?

    You should refrain from spouting a string of juvenile insults, it does nothing to reinforce your nonsensical argument. Also, how ironic that you heckle me as 'stupid', when you fail to even spell 'patheticly' correctly.
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    (Original post by Rule Britannia)
    No I haven't. Here is the link. It is an annotated copy of the Koran (original text only quoted) published in Saudi Arabia by two Islamic scholars called Dr Muhammed Taqi-ud Din Al-Hilali and Dr Muhammed Mushin Khan. The scanned pages are right in front of you and it's from google books which is a fair source - I seriously doubt they tamper with books before scanning them. Again, click on that link and scroll down 1 page and you will see what I quoted word to word.

    Don't accuse me of lying when the evidence is sat in your face.

    I have quoted a specific section but you can read what is above it and below it and see it is not taken out of context.
    Look, i told you read 190. Also i havent been muslim all my life, infact i fully reverted only a few weeks ago. I was catholic, then athiest, then inspired by islam, picked up a Quran and i too came accross these verses. I was dissapointed and then seeked proper explanation and all the "Violent" verses were explained to me in thier proper context and i can honestly say there is no violence promoting verses in the quran. The quran teaches that if you kill an innocent being, muslim or non muslim then it is just like killing the whole of man kind. Likewise saving someone, muslim or non muslim is like saving the whole of mankind.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Indeed, liberal democrats and libertarians have far more in common than labour and libertarians do.

    Nick Clegg himself is a market-liberal. :yep:
    Well i'm not exactly a free marketist - i believe the free market needs to be corrected when it fails and sould not intrude on affairs of state - education, healtcare, policing etc, but when it comes to social issues i'm a strong libertarian.

    I'm a libertarian on social issues and left wing on economic ones
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    As a Muslim here observing the thread and responses, I find it interesting. On one hand we see the dwindling influence/value/role religion in general has in Western society. Indeed we even see elements of those religions calling for a modernisiation of those doctrines so e.g. Christianity can be accepted and embedded into secular culture.

    And on the other hand Muslims, who are orthodox in comparison, represent the complete opposite in attitude. So I wonder if this aggression or dislike towards Islam - mainly because of it's unwillingness to secuarlise or change - is a reflection of a feeling against religion in general? The traditional doctrine of the Abrahamic faiths are by definition incompatible with modern day society in many ways.

    Discuss
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    Well i'm not exactly a free marketist - i believe the free market needs to be corrected when it fails and sould not intrude on affairs of state - education, healtcare, policing etc, but when it comes to social issues i'm a strong libertarian.

    I'm a libertarian on social issues and left wing on economic ones
    Yes, I already knew this. Let's just say - so was I, once upon a time.
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    (Original post by starsdream2)
    Much as it pains me to respond to a racist I must not miss this opportunity to mock.

    Oh yyeees because a few idiots go blowing things up and thinking they are action men it makes the rest of the 1.6 billion people the same. :rolleyes:

    I love your logic.
    I should have just quoted you to save having to write out a whole response breaking him down bit by bit!

    Basically, the idiot racist's arguments fall down at the first hurdle of having to be logically sound - though it's harsh of us to criticise his greatest achievement. :rolleyes:

    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    I'm a libertarian on social issues and left wing on economic ones
    Wow, my political beliefs couldn't be further away from yours! :p:
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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    Look, i told you read 190. Also i havent been muslim all my life, infact i fully reverted only a few weeks ago. I was catholic, then athiest, then inspired by islam, picked up a Quran and i too came accross these verses. I was dissapointed and then seeked proper explanation and all the "Violent" verses were explained to me in thier proper context and i can honestly say there is no violence promoting verses in the quran. The quran teaches that if you kill an innocent being, muslim or non muslim then it is just like killing the whole of man kind. Likewise saving someone, muslim or non muslim is like saving the whole of mankind.
    But it says this "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (alone). But if they cease let there be no transgressions except against Az-Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers).

    It says stop fighting everyone except polytheists and wrongdoers. How can you say there is no violent promoting verses in the Koran when at this link at 193 there is very clearly stated in idiot proof language that there can be "transgressions" against polytheists and wrong doers. You are lying about the nature of Islam in the face of irrefutable evidence.
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    (Original post by starsdream2)
    Much as it pains me to respond to a racist I must not miss this opportunity to mock.

    Oh yyeees because a few idiots go blowing things up and thinking they are action men it makes the rest of the 1.6 billion people the same. :rolleyes:

    I love your logic.
    May I point you in the direction of say, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sat...es_controversy.
    Where the leader of the Iranian revolution, leader of a country with 65 million+ Muslims, declared a fatwa on Salman Rushdie?

    I mean I thought a Western education would suffice but perhaps not; Kat Stevens, now Yusuf Islam, had this delightful piece to say on the Satanic Verses author Salman Rushdie;

    Robertson: You don't think that this man deserves to die?
    Y. Islam: Who, Salman Rushdie?
    Robertson: Yes.
    Y. Islam: Yes, yes.
    Robertson: And do you have a duty to be his executioner?
    Y. Islam: Uh, no, not necessarily, unless we were in an Islamic state and I was ordered by a judge or by the authority to carry out such an act - perhaps, yes.
    [Some minutes later, Robertson on the subject of a protest where an effigy of the author is to be burned]
    Robertson: Would you be part of that protest, Yusuf Islam, would you go to a demonstration where you knew that an effigy was going to be burned?
    Y. Islam: I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing
    There are many other examples. How about right now in Darfur, the absolute horrendous slaughter of Christians by Muslims. I am not saying that people who follow the religion are inherently evil or any such crap, but they are just so badly influenced....the media in these countries is a disgrace, and they are fed anti-Western anti-semitic ******** night and day. It's a real mess.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Yes, I already knew this. Let's just say - so was I, once upon a time.
    I'm still developing my views, i'm only 16.

    I think when it comes down to it my detestation of religion probably outweighs my economic views. I'd be willing to trade an religious world for an inequitable world.
 
 
 
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