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"...Western society will either die out or be Islamised" Watch

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    (Original post by DJkG.1)
    I should have just quoted you to save having to write out a whole response breaking him down bit by bit!

    Basically, the idiot racist's arguments fall down at the first hurdle of having to be logically sound - though it's harsh of us to criticise his greatest achievement. :rolleyes:
    I've been ignoring this as it's off topic but I would like to point out you said there was no evidence that Islam was a poison in western society. I copied in images of mass-murders against unarmed innocent people inspired by Islam and also images of political Islam to demonstrate that there is some evidence. If starsdream2 and yourself are so intellectually diminutive to extrapolate that into an argument that every Muslim is a terrorist then that is your problem - but you explicitly stated there was no evidence and I provided some. That does not constitute racism I'm afraid.
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    (Original post by DJkG.1)
    I should have just quoted you to save having to write out a whole response breaking him down bit by bit!

    Basically, the idiot racist's arguments fall down at the first hurdle of having to be logically sound - though it's harsh of us to criticise his greatest achievement. :rolleyes:



    Wow, my political beliefs couldn't be further away from yours! :p:
    In what sense?
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    (Original post by Rule Britannia)
    But it says this "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (alone). But if they cease let there be no transgressions except against Az-Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers).

    It says stop fighting everyone except polytheists and wrongdoers. How can you say there is no violent promoting verses in the Koran when at this link at 193 there is very clearly stated in idiot proof language that there can be "transgressions" against polytheists and wrong doers. You are lying about the nature of Islam in the face of irrefutable evidence.
    If your in a plane and it is gonna crash. Step 1 put on a parachute. Step 2 make your way to the exit door. Step 3 jump out the plane.
    Are you going to ignore step 1 and jump out without parachute?
    I hope you wouldn't, therefore why do you continuosly refuse to acknowledge the instructions in the Quran that come before "fight the non believers"?????????????
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    (Original post by Time Tourist)
    It's a good question who the 'we' are, and the one from which politics must start from, and getting clear about it is important to this discussion. Although the way you phrase it I sense you don't feel that there is a 'we', or at least your sense of it is muddled. I would say that the 'we' is the people who are members of our society who feel that they belong together, and that sense of belonging is pre-political, the people included in the 'we' believe in a common destiny. That is the way in which most societies have successfully existed.

    Again like most discussions about modern culture this one has come down to a matter of 'rights' - no mention of responsibility of course - such as the responsibility to conform to the social norms of the culture you are moving to, in order to ease the inevitable frictions that will otherwise take place.


    To that I would say no, from the fact we are a democracy it does not follow that people can do absolutely as they wish, there are social rules and conventions that we adhere to as we go about our daily lives, ways in which we dress and ways in which we act towards strangers - all cultures have these. And are very sensitive to sudden changes in these.

    And the 'harm' idea is a good point - again going back to JSM, the idea that by wearing a burka you are not harming anyone, well to that I would say that you are harming wider society. People often argue that our society is in trouble because it is increasingly fragmenting, is it not the case that the increasing prominence of the burka in our towns and cities is exactly the kind of thing that contributes to this sense of fragmentation? As increasingly in our inner cities we find the excluding sights and sounds of the ghetto? To the extent that someone wearing a skirt will feel disapproving eyes up her when she walks around certain areas of East London - this implication here of course is a loss of control of the area from the English people, it is no longer England as it was known but now belongs to another culture.
    :confused: I feel like I belong together with the rest of society. As do 99% of British Muslims.

    This is why rather than banning an item of clothing people who come into the country should be educated in such a way that they would not consider wearing them. That way you are not restricting anybodies rights. The way I see it the social norm of the British culture is to be tolerant and I consider letting someone wear what they want not even drawing upon those reserves of tolerance.

    Of course. I forgot to include the word legally as well. Democratic Britain dictates people may wear eat and behave how they want as long as it does not harm others is illegal or offends people (Offends them for good reason and not just because the burkha is not fashionable) There is no question that there are social boundaries but again I fail to see how that piece of cloth oversteps the line. I think the one thing that can be said of Britain is no matter how much people may look down upon or laugh at you, you do not have to 'conform'
    Why should someone dress in a certain way as to please someone?


    To that I would respond that it is the individual that cannot get past that piece of clothing and needs someone to dress in a certain way to take a person seriously or to be able to integrate with someone with the problem. As it is his/her prejudice.


    The eyes that frown upon a girl wearing a short skirt cannot be pinpointed to just Muslims. In fact look at wider Britain you will see that even a short skirt can bring about questions on what makes a girl feel she needs to dress exposing so much skin and the fact that maybe she just likes it is disregarded.

    For me and I think most of Britain, British culture has never been about what you were or how you conform but always about tolerance respect and personal freedom.

    My belief is people can dress in as little or as much as they wish.
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    Well I had the feeling you would try to sidestep 193 so lets paste it in so we know the problems with Islam.

    And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (alone). But if they cease let there be no transgressions except against Az-Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers)

    So your claims about transgress the limits are void as transgressions are explicitly permitted against polytheists and wrongdoers. As a woman who walks around in the street in a mini-skirt is not being modest and by extension must be a "wrong doer" that is - she is defying "Allah" it is clear that Islam does provide not only moral support for wars, violence and murders of non-Muslims but actually declares it imperative in 193.

    This is not out of context as I've read above and below this passage. This is quite clearly written in the Koran.
    It has to be said taking quotes from the Koran and using them as a criticism of Islam is rather a waste of time. For the most part the Koran teaches a pious way of life, yes it may be interspersed with odd sentence that preaches violence, but so what? We can find rather appalling passages in the Old Testament too (see the book of Joshua). Just as we can find beautiful passages in both books. Fundamentally Islam when practiced in its pure in its pure form is a pious way of life that teaches humility. The question for us is dealing with the renewed confrontation between it and the West.
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    (Original post by Meus)
    And on the other hand Muslims, who are orthodox in comparison, represent the complete opposite in attitude. So I wonder if this aggression or dislike towards Islam - mainly because of it's unwillingness to secuarlise or change - is a reflection of a feeling against religion in general? The traditional doctrine of the Abrahamic faiths are by definition incompatible with modern day society in many ways.
    Think of it as as reflection of that feeling put through the magnifying glass of xenophobia. There are those that oppose it because of its principles, those who oppose it because of xenophobia, and many who are motivated by a bit of both.
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    """If your in a plane and it is gonna crash. Step 1 put on a parachute. Step 2 make your way to the exit door. Step 3 jump out the plane.
    Are you going to ignore step 1 and jump out without parachute?
    I hope you wouldn't, therefore why do you continuosly refuse to acknowledge the instructions in the Quran that come before "fight the non believers"?????????????"""

    Also adding to this point, is the plane manual evil because it mentions jumping out of a plane?
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    (Original post by Rule Britannia)
    I've been ignoring this as it's off topic but I would like to point out you said there was no evidence that Islam was a poison in western society. I copied in images of mass-murders against unarmed innocent people inspired by Islam and also images of political Islam to demonstrate that there is some evidence. If starsdream2 and yourself are so intellectually diminutive to extrapolate that into an argument that every Muslim is a terrorist then that is your problem - but you explicitly stated there was no evidence and I provided some. That does not constitute racism I'm afraid.
    No, but it does constitute an illogical argument. :yes:

    I can't even be bothered anymore... I've leave it to the rest of the people here to try and put you right but I'm sure they'll fail, you seem too thick to understand the basic logic of causal relationships so you're a lost cause I'm afraid.
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    I've read most of his posts, and I cannot see anything which could be described as racist. Care to provide me with an example, or is your brain incapable of carrying out this task?

    You should refrain from spouting a string of juvenile insults, it does nothing to reinforce your nonsensical argument. Also, how ironic that you heckle me as 'stupid', when you fail to even spell 'patheticly' correctly.
    Ok love let me give you a break down of everything as it seems you are incapable of understanding even the most basic things.

    :confused: I feel like I belong together with the rest of society. As do 99% of British Muslims.

    This is why rather than banning an item of clothing people who come into the country should be educated in such a way that they would not consider wearing them. That way you are not restricting anybodies rights. The way I see it the social norm of the British culture is to be tolerant and I consider letting someone wear what they want not even drawing upon those reserves of tolerance.

    Of course. I forgot to include the word legally as well. Democratic Britain dictates people may wear eat and behave how they want as long as it does not harm others is illegal or offends people (Offends them for good reason and not just because the burkha is not fashionable) There is no question that there are social boundaries but again I fail to see how that piece of cloth oversteps the line. I think the one thing that can be said of Britain is no matter how much people may look down upon or laugh at you, you do not have to 'conform'
    Why should someone dress in a certain way as to please someone?


    To that I would respond that it is the individual that cannot get past that piece of clothing and needs someone to dress in a certain way to take a person seriously or to be able to integrate with someone with the problem. As it is his/her prejudice.


    The eyes that frown upon a girl wearing a short skirt cannot be pinpointed to just Muslims. In fact look at wider Britain you will see that even a short skirt can bring about questions on what makes a girl feel she needs to dress exposing so much skin and the fact that maybe she just likes it is disregarded.

    For me and I think most of Britain, British culture has never been about what you were or how you conform but always about tolerance respect and personal freedom.

    My belief is people can dress in as little or as much as they wish. Point blank.

    1) You said you have read MOST his posts not ALL. Why not actually read them all and then come back. Whilst were questioning my brain power can I ask why in the half an hour or so it took you to respond you were unable to go over a few of his posts and see for yourself? Instead of coming at me with rhetoric why not actually do what I suggested in the first post. That way you would not be making an idiot of yourself.

    It amuses me how you call me 'juvenile' when it seems throughout this entire debate you have only attempted to call me up on this and not tried to dispute any other posts I have made. If my argument is so 'nonsensical' then why have you not attempted to dispute it.

    As for your last point it is not just the ability to spell correctly that makes someone clever. Oh and thanks for bringing my little spelling mistake to light. You seem to forget that I have other posts where I have been able to spell perfectly and they may have just been a little slip up on my part.
    The guy does not believe in multiculturalism and believes people who are not the BNP version of British should not be allowed to reside in the UK. Blah blah I think you get the point.

    :rolleyes: Honestly.
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    I feel like I belong together with the rest of society. As do 99% of British Muslims.

    This is why rather than banning an item of clothing people who come into the country should be educated in such a way that they would not consider wearing them. That way you are not restricting anybodies rights. The way I see it the social norm of the British culture is to be tolerant and I consider letting someone wear what they want not even drawing upon those reserves of tolerance.

    Of course. I forgot to include the word legally as well. Democratic Britain dictates people may wear eat and behave how they want as long as it does not harm others is illegal or offends people (Offends them for good reason and not just because the burkha is not fashionable) There is no question that there are social boundaries but again I fail to see how that piece of cloth oversteps the line. I think the one thing that can be said of Britain is no matter how much people may look down upon or laugh at you, you do not have to 'conform'
    Why should someone dress in a certain way as to please someone?


    To that I would respond that it is the individual that cannot get past that piece of clothing and needs someone to dress in a certain way to take a person seriously or to be able to integrate with someone with the problem. As it is his/her prejudice.


    The eyes that frown upon a girl wearing a short skirt cannot be pinpointed to just Muslims. In fact look at wider Britain you will see that even a short skirt can bring about questions on what makes a girl feel she needs to dress exposing so much skin and the fact that maybe she just likes it is disregarded.

    For me and I think most of Britain, British culture has never been about what you were or how you conform but always about tolerance respect and personal freedom.

    My belief is people can dress in as little or as much as they wish.
    Well to firstly I honestly do not feel 99% of British Muslims feel they belong as part of wider society - why then do statistics show that disturbingly number sympathize 'to some extent' with the 7/7 bombers?

    And as I have repeatedly said a women who wears a burka is conspicuously renouncing her membership of wider society, and knowingly. That is really the main point here I feel, and I don't know that you have countered that point ? The burka in our society is undoubtedly an act of alienation.

    Although in fairness you have acknowledged that we should discourage people from wearing it - and recognize it is causing problems.

    The qualities that you speak of; tolerance respect personnel freedom - are really the values preached by nu labour and that Gordon Brown never tires of preaching to us - they are values that belong to the socialist state rather then being uniquely English.

    And the freedoms that you say allow us to wear whatever we wear are actually consequences of our cultures decadence and social decline (a punk or a goth are equally signs of our decline - all products of the post 60's youth culture - none of this ever existed before) the loss of a common culture - rites of passage and the proper transition into adulthood - all of this has gone. Communities actually depend upon prejudice for their health and survival - prejudice being the defense and preservation of a place history and language - a common culture so to speak. Again we are all but loosing this - the concept of multi-culturalism being a contributing factor.

    it's not necessarily about pleasing someone, as I have said before what you wear is an outward sign that is loaded with meaning to be interpreted by others.

    And its as much a part of the community as anything else (think of how folk costumes evolve and develop)

    anyway im rambling way too much now - bed time - work tomorrow.
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    (Original post by starsdream2)
    Ok love let me give you a break down of everything as it seems you are incapable of understanding even the most basic things.

    :confused: I feel like I belong together with the rest of society. As do 99% of British Muslims.

    This is why rather than banning an item of clothing people who come into the country should be educated in such a way that they would not consider wearing them. That way you are not restricting anybodies rights. The way I see it the social norm of the British culture is to be tolerant and I consider letting someone wear what they want not even drawing upon those reserves of tolerance.

    Of course. I forgot to include the word legally as well. Democratic Britain dictates people may wear eat and behave how they want as long as it does not harm others is illegal or offends people (Offends them for good reason and not just because the burkha is not fashionable) There is no question that there are social boundaries but again I fail to see how that piece of cloth oversteps the line. I think the one thing that can be said of Britain is no matter how much people may look down upon or laugh at you, you do not have to 'conform'
    Why should someone dress in a certain way as to please someone?

    To that I would respond that it is the individual that cannot get past that piece of clothing and needs someone to dress in a certain way to take a person seriously or to be able to integrate with someone with the problem. As it is his/her prejudice.

    The eyes that frown upon a girl wearing a short skirt cannot be pinpointed to just Muslims. In fact look at wider Britain you will see that even a short skirt can bring about questions on what makes a girl feel she needs to dress exposing so much skin and the fact that maybe she just likes it is disregarded.

    For me and I think most of Britain, British culture has never been about what you were or how you conform but always about tolerance respect and personal freedom.

    My belief is people can dress in as little or as much as they wish. Point blank.
    I've disregarded the droning tripe that you have simply copied from your previous essay. It's neither relevant, nor does it address my point.

    1) You said you have read MOST his posts not ALL. Why not actually read them all and then come back. Whilst were questioning my brain power can I ask why in the half an hour or so it took you to respond you were unable to go over a few of his posts and see for yourself? Instead of coming at me with rhetoric why not actually do what I suggested in the first post. That way you would not be making an idiot of yourself.
    You heckled him as a 'racist', therefore the onus is on your to reinforce this claim with evidence. The fact that you are vehemently refusing to do so, renders your claim as invalid and nothing more than a childish, baseless insult.

    It amuses me how you call me 'juvenile' when it seems throughout this entire debate you have only attempted to call me up on this and not tried to dispute any other posts I have made. If my argument is so 'nonsensical' then why have you not attempted to dispute it.
    The argument I referred to as 'nonsensical' was the post whereby you mainly brandished around a string of unoriginal, playground insults without providing evidence for the claim I asked for you to reinforce.

    As for your last point it is not just the ability to spell correctly that makes someone clever.
    Basic spelling is certainly a factor of intelligence, and I would expect a person who has the tenacity to heckle other people as 'stupid' to be proficient in it.


    All you had to do was provide me with a quote from one of his posts which reinforced the claim that he is apparently a 'racist'. Instead you decided to throw your toys out of the pram and brandish around a load of juvenile insults.
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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    Praise be to western justice.
    If you hate the west, why do you live here?
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    Think of it as as reflection of that feeling put through the magnifying glass of xenophobia. There are those that oppose it because of its principles, those who oppose it because of xenophobia, and many who are motivated by a bit of both.
    People's objections against it seem to vary between the irrelevant and the relevent but rarely do you find the dislikes inherient to Islam itself. For example Islam is "evil" because it calls for the stoning of adulterers. Christianity is not evil despite God citing the same punishment in the Bible - the fact that it is not longer practised should be noted, but how does that balance into the thinking of an individual when giving judgements about God himself? You see, I don't think it is as much of an attempt to evaluate or measure specific doctrines - but instead a clash of ethics. Even modern Christianity which is more moderate than Islam and Judaism, is being targeted to further liberealise.

    You even said it yourself (pardon me if I'm wrong), that religion in its current form will die if it does not change to something more socially acceptable. Islam is Christianity centuries ago, but it refuses to be defined by cultural developments. If it was, if you saw Islamic doctrine re-written tomorrow, you would find people still unwilling to accept it the day after.
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    I forgot to respond to the actual op, Western Society will not die out, not by a long shot.

    Islam will not die out either...

    I dont know how they two are going to get along but i dont think people all over the UK, US and everywhere else are going to start wearing headscarfs and whatnot.

    Islam should not try to force itself on the west (im not saying it does, simply speaking hypothetically for the future) and therefore western society will not change.

    Likewise, if Muslims have such a hard time living in western society, they will probably move back to a more Islamic community (eg. Pakistan) once their economy grows to adequate levels to support them and once all the war stops in that region.
    (Personally i think the war is wrong, the taliban should be stopped but many innocent people are being killed.
    But if Osama Bin Laden and the taliban and al queda have such a problem with the effect of the war in the middle east, why doesn't he give himself up and be a true martyr? Youre never going to see him blow himself up -hes too smart - he will get his followers to do that )

    Just to be clear, I hate the IRA:mad:
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    (Original post by stainluss)
    If you hate the west, why do you live here?
    Another person who choses specific segments to quote.
    I dont hate west, but it is not a secret that i beleive that islamic lifestyle is more safer, and civilized.
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    As a Muslim Yemeni Arab, i believe that this thread is quite interesting, but there are some people here who seem to have a lot of hatred towards Islam which is a bit worrying in a society which discourages racism, but i like seeing such people because it makes feel how far Islam has reached.Some people claim that why are Muslims allowed to build mosques in the west while christians are not allowed to build churhes in the middle east.I would like to tell those that most western countries claim to be secular and NOT religious so they have to allow freedom of religion, but countries as Iran and Saudi Arabia have declared that they are Islamic and not secular so obviously they wouldn't allow churches to be built.I really thank Britain for the aid they give Muslims and I respect them for doing what they claim to be.
    Islam is a great religion which respects all religions.We love Jesus(pbuh) and we believe in him and love him more than ourselves, and there's a complete chapter about Mary in the Quran, and Moses(pbuh) is the most prophet mentioned in the Quran, that's why you christians insult Mohammad(pbuh) but we don't because according to Islam, who insults Jesus(pbuh) or any prophet is not considered to be a Muslim any more.Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and whatever those racists do they can't stop this message from reaching the whole universe.Finally i would like to thank every christian who is against these thoughts which are against Islam, and i hope that we can cooperate instead of fighting.
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    (Original post by IBN SINA)
    As a Muslim Yemeni Arab, i believe that this thread is quite interesting, but there are some people here who seem to have a lot of hatred towards Islam which is a bit worrying in a society which discourages racism
    Islam is not a race.
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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    Another person who choses specific segments to quote.
    I dont hate west, but it is not a secret that i beleive that islamic lifestyle is more safer, and civilized.
    Then why choose London?
    Pakistan and those countries would have a safer lifestyle as it is an islamic nation.

    Im not telling you thats where you should be
    im just curious about your views and living in London?

    Furthermore, i think it is wrong to say it is more civilized.

    It is sexist and brutal in its punishments.

    The UK may have a lot of chavs etc. but the government and the police are quite liberal. They lock you away for bad things.

    They dont whip women for wearing trousers.. Do you belive that these islamic countries oppose freedom?:confused:

    It certainly seems like they do, ZizAli
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    (Original post by fire2burn)
    We will never be Islamised, Europeans like their alcohol too much.

    /thread
    Muslims like their alcohol too much as well.

    Just because they are Mohammedians doesn't mean they don't drink.

    squish.
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    (Original post by IBN SINA)
    As a Muslim Yemeni Arab, i believe that this thread is quite interesting, but there are some people here who seem to have a lot of hatred towards Islam which is a bit worrying in a society which discourages racism, but i like seeing such people because it makes feel how far Islam has reached.Some people claim that why are Muslims allowed to build mosques in the west while christians are not allowed to build churhes in the middle east.I would like to tell those that most western countries claim to be secular and NOT religious so they have to allow freedom of religion, but countries as Iran and Saudi Arabia have declared that they are Islamic and not secular so obviously they wouldn't allow churches to be built.I really thank Britain for the aid they give Muslims and I respect them for doing what they claim to be.
    Islam is a great religion which respects all religions.We love Jesus(pbuh) and we believe in him and love him more than ourselves, and there's a complete chapter about Mary in the Quran, and Moses(pbuh) is the most prophet mentioned in the Quran, that's why you christians insult Mohammad(pbuh) but we don't because according to Islam, who insults Jesus(pbuh) or any prophet is not considered to be a Muslim any more.Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and whatever those racists do they can't stop this message from reaching the whole universe.Finally i would like to thank every christian who is against these thoughts which are against Islam, and i hope that we can cooperate instead of fighting.
    What your saying is great
    Everyone should hear about islam and understand its teachings.

    And then make their own mind up about what faith is right for them.

    In the end, were all going to end up in some heaven together for being decent people
 
 
 
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