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The two most powerful men in Britain were not elected into their positions Watch

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    Gordon Brown and Peter Mandelson, who is arguably Deputy Prime Minister and now Prime Minister (whilst Gordon Brown is on holiday) are both unelected, in terms of their positions. Yet, they are the two most powerful men in the country.

    What do you staunch democracy advocates think of this? I suppose people can just about cope with an unelected PM, but an unelected PM & Deputy PM?

    Oh, and don't bring the Queen into this (as I suspect may be the case), as I am talking about real, practical, day-to-day (not just theoretical) power.
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    Gordon Brown IS elected.
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    We don't elect Prime Ministers in this country, if we did they'd be called President. The people voted for the Labour party to govern in 2005. Gordon Brown, as leader of that Party is therefore leader of the country.

    Note: I don't vote Labour. But saying Gordon Brown is "unelected" shows a rather bad understanding of British politics.

    But out of interest: Do you believe John Major was "unelected"?
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    Was about to point out your misunderstanding of the basics of British democracy.

    Above posters got there first.
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    :facepalm: As said above, we vote for a party, not a person. The Labour party was voted in 2005, not Blair. He was merely the spokesperson for Labour, and now it is Brown. Brown is perfectly legitimate and elected fairly.
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    I perfer the electoral system to the one they use in the USA, even if it does mean the PM is indirectly elected into office. He is still elected as an MP.
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    We don't elect Prime Ministers in this country, if we did they'd be called President. The people voted for the Labour party to govern in 2005. Gordon Brown, as leader of that Party is therefore leader of the country.

    Note: I don't vote Labour. But saying Gordon Brown is "unelected" shows a rather bad understanding of British politics.
    Note, my post says in terms of his position. The plain fact is, the two most powerful men in this country were not elected into their positions, regardless of how the system works.

    What do you think of Mandelson, and his current position?

    But out of interest: Do you believe John Major was "unelected"?
    An unelected Prime Minister, yes.
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    Lol. I love it when people try to be all clever about politics when thet don't know a thing about it.
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    (Original post by A is for Awesome)
    Was about to point out your misunderstanding of the basics of British democracy.
    Care to elaborate, instead of relying on other posters?

    I am fully aware of how the system works, that doesn't mean that I can't challenge the fact that the two (people seem to be disregarding Mandelson in this thread) most powerful men in the country are unelected into their roles. I wanted to see how advocates of democracy felt about this core fact.
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    Note, my post says in terms of his position. The plain fact is, the two most powerful men in this country were not elected into their positions, regardless of how the system works.
    But in our system of politics that's completely irrelevant, what matters is the party that was elected. Maybe in the case of LBJ in the USA your argument would make sense, as they have a Presidential system, but that really doesn't matter for us as we work within a completely different system which isn't as reliant on the individual.

    What do you think of Mandelson, and his current position?
    Well I don't like him, and I think he's been given way too many chances by Blair and Brown. But I think if one were to pick on him for being unelected to the position which he has, the entire Cabinet ought to be declared undemocratic, as nobody voted any of them into their job as Foreign Secretary or whatever.
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    So you're questioning the electoral system, rather than the legitimacy of Brown's and Mandelson's power?
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    I think you're forgetting about Rupert Murdoch...
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    Care to elaborate, instead of relying on other posters?

    I am fully aware of how the system works, that doesn't mean that I can't challenge the fact that the two (people seem to be disregarding Mandelson in this thread) most powerful men in the country are unelected into their roles. I wanted to see how advocates of democracy felt about this core fact.
    By your argument,
    Tony Blair was unelected in his role.
    So was John Major.
    So was Maggie Thatcher.
    So was Winston Churchill.
    So was EVERY Prime Minister.

    If you really need it repearing again, we don't elect individual Prime Ministers, we elect parties. Who ever heads the party heads the country, regardless if they were leader when the party was elected.

    Therefore, as someone else stated, if you have a problem it is with the system, not the individual.
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    Well I don't like him, and I think he's been given way too many chances by Blair and Brown. But I think if one were to pick on him for being unelected to the position which he has, the entire Cabinet ought to be declared undemocratic, as nobody voted any of them into their job as Foreign Secretary or whatever.
    Well, there is a difference: Brown was elected as an MP, but Mandelson was not. I think the question of whether Mandelson should have such a major position in the Cabinet is a fair one.
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    Gordon Brown and Peter Mandelson, who is arguably Deputy Prime Minister and now Prime Minister (whilst Gordon Brown is on holiday) are both unelected, in terms of their positions. Yet, they are the two most powerful men in the country.

    What do you staunch democracy advocates think of this? I suppose people can just about cope with an unelected PM, but an unelected PM & Deputy PM?

    Oh, and don't bring the Queen into this (as I suspect may be the case), as I am talking about real, practical, day-to-day (not just theoretical) power.
    you elect a party, who select their own leader
    fool
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    Gordon Brown was elected as one of the most prominent members of the Labour Party, while both the Liberals and the Torys campaigned with 'Vote Blair Get Brown' as almost everyone in the country knew Brown was going to take over from Blair this term. Knowing this, the Labour Party was elected as the government, and the Labour Party decided that Gordon Brown was to be their leader and thus PM. We do not elect our ministers, we vote for MPs to represent our constituency, and the winning party decides who will become ministers.

    As for Mandleson, his position is not a formal one and he has few powers as First Secretary Of State, but I do not like the fact that we have an unelected person having a say in the running of our country, but this is more a problem with the House Of Lords, an unelected body, who have an undemocratic say in how our nation is run. We don't have a very democratic system (house of lords, first past the post etc.) so having unelected people in high positions isn't really shocking unfortunately.
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    In my opinion, when taking the degree of power into account, there should be seperate national elections for Prime Ministers. There should be a list of each candidate with each party at a general election, and the candidate who gets the most votes for the party that wins the parliamentary elections, should be PM. I'm up for half of the Lords being elected by PR too in fact.
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    The party is selected/elected but the party get to choose their leader.

    It's like Democracy 0.5

    or Democracy 50%

    whatever.,..
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    (Original post by Forbidden Fruit)
    Gordon Brown and Peter Mandelson, who is arguably Deputy Prime Minister and now Prime Minister (whilst Gordon Brown is on holiday) are both unelected, in terms of their positions. Yet, they are the two most powerful men in the country.

    What do you staunch democracy advocates think of this? I suppose people can just about cope with an unelected PM, but an unelected PM & Deputy PM?

    Oh, and don't bring the Queen into this (as I suspect may be the case), as I am talking about real, practical, day-to-day (not just theoretical) power.
    ^ Well, if you're talking about practical day to day power, then surely 2 people can't possibly have that power. That power is in the hands of the administration as a whole and there are thousands of people in the administration, most of whom (if not all) are elected.
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    It's worth pointing out to those of you that are saying "This is a reason to go to an American system" that Mandelson as Business Secretary wouldn't be elected in an American-style system either. Approved by congress, sure, but not elected.
 
 
 
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