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    (Original post by iwannabe)
    Can the all-knowing, science-driven, intellectually un-brainwashed society not see that the title of this post is obviously intended to brainwash, and successfully so? Talk about beams in eyes!

    The man in question did not "kill his daughter through prayer". Upon seeing the title, I was actually let to believe this guy prayed and prayed for his daughter to die, and she did. Instead, he allowed his daughter to die by not looking for enough help. Maybe he should have taken her to the hospital sooner, maybe his faith wasn't enough who knows?

    Isn't it ironic that when people pray and things do happen, everyone says "Oh, it's science! - Silly people". When things don't happen, people still go "Silly people - Go to Science".... God is not obliged to prove himself to anyone who blatantly denies his existence, and has resolved to believe in Hid non-existence. He is like the proverbial criminal - Any evidence He produces will eventually be used against Him.
    but the guy DID believe in God
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    (Original post by Gjaykay)
    yaaay! :woo:

    I'd like to thank my family and friends.....

    You all know what I mean though. It's woefull that some people still do that. I mean I've heard that african's still prefer wich doctors....
    Of course it is and I think I can safely say that most religious people would agree with you.

    My cousin successfully battled leukaemia several years ago, and I was speaking to my uncle earlier about this case, and my uncle [a practising Christian] said he would never have dreamt of not seeking medical treatment for his son. His comment was, "God is not there to magically solve our problems, but He is there to give us the strength to get through them." As a family, my uncle and his wife turned to the medics to save their son, and to God to help them through it.

    Sadly, I have to say, that living in the USA at the moment and seeing first hand how a small number of extreme Christian churches operate, I can't say I was surprised about this story. Shocked and saddened yes. Surprised no. In fact, thinking of this story, I saw a church once where the side outside read, 'a prayer a day keeps the doctor away'. If only that were true.
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    (Original post by thethinker)
    It's from a joke.
    Really? I swear we were taught it in RE back in Year 9 or something :P

    Oh wells XD
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    I'm sure there are quite a few people on the edge of death who are trying to help themselves...

    Also it seems you are one of the people I ranted about in my post above this. People thank God when their loved one is cured of something terrible via major surgery. It's the medical team that saves them, not God. What do you say when they die on the table? Did you not have enough faith? Was the child a naughty sinner? It just seems when the surgeons work damned hard to safe someone a religious family will thank God..rather then those who did something, when the surgery goes badly they'll use the classic cop-out "oh well it's God's will". I can't believe a parents who loses a young child can really believe that, it's simply beyond me, when a belief like that can override basic human emotions you know there's little hope they'll ever get free thought back.
    It seems you don't understand what I'm saying - I was actually agreeing with you; that if someone's ill, give them the treatment they require. What I was saying was that there's no excuse anywhere for standing idly by, claiming you've done all you can when you've only prayed. In the Bible, it says that if you want God to help you, you must do yourself what needs to be done, and if it is God's will then the attempt (whatever it is) won't fail. From a Christian's point of view: he did wrong.
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    (Original post by Hamcock)
    how is it gay?!
    It looks absolutely shocking, the poster is more like that of a school play than a serious drama series. If that is the state of television in Hong Kong then I feel for you.
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    Has this proved God doesnt exist? Is it a sign of the upcoming apocalypse? Does this mean that all atheists are collectively pleasuring themselves with the ultimate proof?!

    No. It just proves that he is a ****** father, who put his belief in a religion over that of medical knowledge. He is no different to other extremists who blow themselves up in that regard. I dont believe in any god or religion but this is a one off case of stupidity.
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    (Original post by The Bishman)
    Has this proved God doesnt exist? Is it a sign of the upcoming apocalypse? Does this mean that all atheists are collectively pleasuring themselves with the ultimate proof?!

    No. It just proves that he is a ****** father, who put his belief in a religion over that of medical knowledge. He is no different to other extremists who blow themselves up in that regard. I dont believe in any god or religion but this is a one off case of stupidity.
    Of course, it also shows that God, if he does exist, heard a man begging for the life of his daughter but chose to let her die anyway. Which, because God is so loving and kind, must have meant that the daughter's surviving would have brought great evil!
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    It seems you don't understand what I'm saying - I was actually agreeing with you; that if someone's ill, give them the treatment they require. What I was saying was that there's no excuse anywhere for standing idly by, claiming you've done all you can when you've only prayed. In the Bible, it says that if you want God to help you, you must do yourself what needs to be done, and if it is God's will then the attempt (whatever it is) won't fail. From a Christian's point of view: he did wrong.
    But I am still saying from my point of view God's "will" has nothing to do with whether a surgery is successful or not. When a surgery fails you can easily find out what happened to them, it's not as if it fails for no reason. At the same time when a surgery is successful it is because the surgeon(s) managed to remove/repair the problem and seal you up again. If God's "will" is what decided the outcome of a surgery I;d have to question his "will" since many children die from surgery each year, sometimes relatively simple surgeries go wrong, although the reason is usually discovered afterwards if your saying it is God's "will" that makes surgeries go wrong it sounds quite...unloving.
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    (Original post by Richard_A_Garner)
    Of course, it also shows that God, if he does exist, heard a man begging for the life of his daughter but chose to let her die anyway. Which, because God is so loving and kind, must have meant that the daughter's surviving would have brought great evil!
    perhaps she would have turned out to be a serial killer but then you have to ask why God didnt just stop her parents from conceiving etc... both are stopping free willl
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    perhaps she would have turned out to be a serial killer but then you have to ask why God didnt just stop her parents from conceiving etc... both are stopping free willl
    Well free will may well not exist if God does. That's because if am omnipotent being exists then he knows what you will have for brekfast on the fifth of May 2012. If you have something different from that, then that would prove God's prediction wrong, but God cannot be wrong, so what you will choose to have must be pre-determined.
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    (Original post by Richard_A_Garner)
    Well free will may well not exist if God does. That's because if am omnipotent being exists then he knows what you will have for brekfast on the fifth of May 2012. If you have something different from that, then that would prove God's prediction wrong, but God cannot be wrong, so what you will choose to have must be pre-determined.
    i don't think pre-determined necessarily excludes free will.the compatabilist will say that freedom has been preserved because there has been no co-ercion (negative freedom still intact despite action being predetermined?)
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    i don't think pre-determined necessarily excludes free will.the compatabilist will say that freedom has been preserved because there has been no co-ercion (negative freedom still intact despite action being predetermined?)
    I am aware of compatibilism, but I'm not sure that the issue of positive and negative liberty is relevant (and also, a purely negative liberty position, like Hillel Steiner's, would suggest that coercion doesn't reduce liberty).

    But, yes, I suppose a compatibilist could say that freedom means doing what you want, and even if those wants are predetermined by someone other than yourself, you can still do what you want.
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    (Original post by Richard_A_Garner)
    I am aware of compatibilism, but I'm not sure that the issue of positive and negative liberty is relevant (and also, a purely negative liberty position, like Hillel Steiner's, would suggest that coercion doesn't reduce liberty).

    But, yes, I suppose a compatibilist could say that freedom means doing what you want, and even if those wants are predetermined by someone other than yourself, you can still do what you want.
    Personally, I dont think that definition of free will works because of this example:

    'Suppose that Danielle is psychologically incapable of wanting to touch a blond haired dog. Imagine that, on her sixteenth birthday, unaware of her condition, her father brings to her two puppies to choose between, one being a blond haired Lab, the other a black haired Lab. He tells Danielle just to pick up whichever of the two she pleases and that he will return the other puppy to the pet store. Danielle happily, and unencumbered, does what she wants and picks up the black Lab.

    When Danielle picked up the black Lab, was she able to pick up the blond Lab? It seems not. Picking up the blond Lab was an alternative that was not available to her. In this respect, she could not have done otherwise. Given her psychological condition, she cannot even form a want to touch a blond Lab, hence she could not pick one up. But notice that, if she wanted to pick up the blond Lab, then she would have done so. Of course, if she wanted to pick up the blond Lab, then she would not suffer from the very psychological disorder that causes her to be unable to pick up blond haired doggies. The classical compatibilist analysis of ‘could have done otherwise’ fails. According to the analysis, when Danielle picked up the black Lab, she was able to pick up the blonde Lab, even though, due to her psychological condition, she was not able to do so in the relevant respect. Hence, the analysis yields the wrong result.'

    ^From SEP
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    (Original post by Gjaykay)
    They both deserved it.

    And come on, faith is one thing, but killing your own daughter?

    That speaks volums about any religious person.
    Oh come on. :rolleyes:

    One religious nutjob in America speaks volumes (note correct spelling) about ANY religious person? He's hardly representative of billions of culturally diverse people.
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    Personally, I dont think that definition of free will works because of this example:

    'Suppose that Danielle is psychologically incapable of wanting to touch a blond haired dog. Imagine that, on her sixteenth birthday, unaware of her condition, her father brings to her two puppies to choose between, one being a blond haired Lab, the other a black haired Lab. He tells Danielle just to pick up whichever of the two she pleases and that he will return the other puppy to the pet store. Danielle happily, and unencumbered, does what she wants and picks up the black Lab.

    When Danielle picked up the black Lab, was she able to pick up the blond Lab? It seems not. Picking up the blond Lab was an alternative that was not available to her. In this respect, she could not have done otherwise. Given her psychological condition, she cannot even form a want to touch a blond Lab, hence she could not pick one up. But notice that, if she wanted to pick up the blond Lab, then she would have done so. Of course, if she wanted to pick up the blond Lab, then she would not suffer from the very psychological disorder that causes her to be unable to pick up blond haired doggies. The classical compatibilist analysis of ‘could have done otherwise’ fails. According to the analysis, when Danielle picked up the black Lab, she was able to pick up the blonde Lab, even though, due to her psychological condition, she was not able to do so in the relevant respect. Hence, the analysis yields the wrong result.'

    ^From SEP
    I'm not sure that this reflects the view of freedom that I mentioned, which was that being free means doing what you want. In that case, the fact that she could not have chosen the blonde dog does not mean that she didn't do what she wanted, and so that she still acted freely.

    Its been a while since I looked into this stuff, not since I taught on Hobbes a couple of years back, but I think that's his position.
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    (Original post by iwannabe)
    Can the all-knowing, science-driven, intellectually un-brainwashed society not see that the title of this post is obviously intended to brainwash, and successfully so? Talk about beams in eyes!

    The man in question did not "kill his daughter through prayer". Upon seeing the title, I was actually let to believe this guy prayed and prayed for his daughter to die, and she did. Instead, he allowed his daughter to die by not looking for enough help. Maybe he should have taken her to the hospital sooner, maybe his faith wasn't enough who knows?

    Isn't it ironic that when people pray and things do happen, everyone says "Oh, it's science! - Silly people". When things don't happen, people still go "Silly people - Go to Science".... God is not obliged to prove himself to anyone who blatantly denies his existence, and has resolved to believe in Hid non-existence. He is like the proverbial criminal - Any evidence He produces will eventually be used against Him.
    www.lmgtfy.com/?q=burden+of+proof
 
 
 
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