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    As I said elsewhere, there's an obvious trend. When leftists get older they almost always shift right. You only have to look at all the current Centrist politicians and right-wing journalists, and you'll be shocked by how many were in Trotskyist, Marxist-Leninist, International Socialist groups etc. when they were students. How people can ignore this fact and continue to stick to childish, out-of-touch, idealistic nonsense is beyond me.

    Edit: But that's for a different thread. :indiff:
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Just no.
    Please link me to where he said that ^^
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Just no.
    The anarchists in Spain were brutal murderers who tortured and murdered many clerics and Christians because they weren't part of their utopian society.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Worse eh? I thought you were one of us :pierre:

    And I could not be a conservative, it's actually not even theoretically possible.
    No, I'm one of you, I'm just pointing out that regardless of the political position you settle on after further consideration, it will be better than the nutjobbery Don is spouting,
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    No, I'm one of you, I'm just pointing out that regardless of the political position you settle on after further consideration, it will be better than the nutjobbery Don is spouting,
    You will be voting Tory in about 20 years, mate.

    I have just grown up quicker and got out of the ridiculous idealist stage.
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    I was going to comment on him saying that, but I considered it too dumb to be worth replying to.
    I didn't really reply to it, but commenting when he says things about anarchism confirms all his paranoid suspicions about how much of an evil leftist I am so it's worth it
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    You will be voting Tory in about 20 years, mate.

    I have just grown up quicker and got out of the ridiculous idealist stage.
    If I ever end up as stupid, bigoted and paranoid as you, I will kill myself. I couldn't live with inflicting that on the world.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    You will be voting Tory in about 20 years, mate.

    I have just grown up quicker and got out of the ridiculous idealist stage.
    I hope you soon grow out of the revisionist history stage too.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    I didn't really reply to it, but commenting when he says things about anarchism confirms all his paranoid suspicions about how much of an evil leftist I am so it's worth it
    I proved how the Spanish anarchists were in some way totalitarian, so why don't you reply to that if I'm so wrong?
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    You will be voting Tory in about 20 years, mate.

    I have just grown up quicker and got out of the ridiculous idealist stage.
    Some of the greatest thinkers of the late 20th century have been Marxists or Anarchists -- of leftist persuasions, that's for sure.

    Politicians can't be too radical. Ever head of the median voter theory? Look at New Labour & what Cameron's doing today -- It'd be hard to draw a distinction between today's Conservatives, and 97's New Labour. Politicians gravitate towards the centre because it's their job to win votes. Simple-as.

    Likewise, journalists write for newspapers; none of which are radical. I'd say they value money and their careers over their own personal beliefs, so they write what will keep them employed, and what will keep putting food on the table. If that means writing on the other side of the fence, then so be it.

    There's a reason why both of these careers are known for housing spineless, amoral people... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by sron)
    I hope you soon grow out of the revisionist history stage too.
    Nothing wrong with revisionism (as long as it's supported).
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    I proved how the Spanish anarchists were in some way totalitarian, so why don't you reply to that if I'm so wrong?
    The clergy were collaborating with the Falangists and actively informing them about individuals who were suspected of being anarchists. What were you expecting?

    The Catholic Church shielded fascists in the Civil War and helped them, how on earth, during wartime, do you not expect some sort of retaliation?
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    I proved how the Spanish anarchists were in some way totalitarian, so why don't you reply to that if I'm so wrong?
    Admittedly, I don't know anything about the 'Spanish Anarchists', but if they were totalitarian then they quite obviously wern't Anarchists.

    The Soviets called themselves Communists, but they were far from it.

    I could call myself a woman, but it wouldn't make me one..
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Nothing wrong with revisionism (as long as it's supported).
    True, but it's clearly not in this case.
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    No, I'm one of you, I'm just pointing out that regardless of the political position you settle on after further consideration, it will be better than the nutjobbery Don is spouting,
    :rofl2: True.

    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Please link me to where he said that ^^
    In his post at 01:20 to Andy the Anarchist, end of the second paragraph

    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    The anarchists in Spain were brutal murderers who tortured and murdered many clerics and Christians because they weren't part of their utopian society.
    :pierre: Even assuming as I do that your posts are true and accurate and an undeformed representation of all reality, that doesn't actually make them totalitarian you know.
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    The clergy were collaborating with the Falangists and actively informing them about individuals who were being suspected of being anarchists. What were you expecting?

    The Catholic Church shielded fascists in the Civil War and helped them, how on earth, during wartime, do you not expect some sort of retaliation?
    This is how thousands of nuns and normal Christians were murdered in brutal ways.

    The violence was just plain bigotry and it's disgusting to see people like Chomsky supporting these terrorists and murderers.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    I proved how the Spanish anarchists were in some way totalitarian, so why don't you reply to that if I'm so wrong?
    Hold your ******* horses mate. Replying to you is not my top priority in life.
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    (Original post by Kneechuh)
    Some of the greatest thinkers of the late 20th century have been Marxists or Anarchists -- of leftist persuasions, that's for sure.
    It's alright for the likes of Gramsci, sitting in his prison cell, and E.P. Thompson, with his cushy education, to write about ideas, but this is nothing to do with pragmatism. If any of their ideas were enforced, as has been proven, they'd subside when power is in sight for their political leaders, when competition is possible among a populace, and when there are external states threatening attack.

    (Original post by Kneechuh)
    Politicians can't be too radical. Ever head of the median voter theory? Look at New Labour & what Cameron's doing today -- It'd be hard to draw a distinction between today's Conservatives, and 97's New Labour. Politicians gravitate towards the centre because it's their job to win votes. Simple-as.

    Likewise, journalists write for newspapers; none of which are radical. I'd say they value money and their careers over their own personal beliefs, so they write what will keep them employed, and what will keep putting food on the table. If that means writing on the other side of the fence, then so be it.
    To put this down to a load of external influences is quite fallacious. It even oversteps Namier. Although a politician may still be able to sympathise with their youth, if they still harboured such opinions, then (a) they wouldn't join a moderate party in the first place, and (b) their ideals would be shown through action. People like Brown, both Hitchens', Mandelson, Milliband etc. are hardly Marxists. The point is that when these people grow up, they realise that the world is more than just a land of candyfloss with people willing to get along. It involves competition, selfishness, expediency, envy and avarice. Their ideal worlds would simply be broken by individual wants, and it's just something they need to realise.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    This is how thousands of nuns and normal Christians were murdered in brutal ways.

    The violence was just plain bigotry and it's disgusting to see people like Chomsky supporting these terrorists and murderers.
    Compared to the Falangists, the anarchists were surprisingly mild in the way civilian populations were treated.

    I mean, I could draw attention to the fact that the Catholic supported Falangists resorted to torture, gang rape and murder of those suspected of having anarchist or socialist sympathies. The excesses of the Falangists overshadowed other reprisals by a factor of ten or more in some cases.

    More to the point, you seem to be missing the fact that this was a war, and during a war some groups commit atrocities. Provided that these atrocities aren't systematic (and evidence demonstrates that they weren't) then it is the fault of the individuals concerned rather than the movement of a whole.

    I mean, does the fact that the allies bombed Dresden during the Second World War make liberal democracy invalid? Your argument is ludicrous in the extreme.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k

    The Nazis were leftists. All socialism/leftism must be opposed!
    Such a cohesive argument, thanks for enlightening me.
 
 
 
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