Can you become a professional electronic engineer without a degree

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The Technical M
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#1
An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer but
doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main reason
for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The student is
currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to proceed from
that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and development and not one
as a technician, factory worker or in IT.

From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they tend
to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and
development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is there a
back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree such as company
training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed education route ?

Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very
difficult exam ?
0
Tom Macintyre
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#2
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:55:49 +0100, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer but[/q1]
[q1]>doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main reason[/q1]
[q1]>for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The student is[/q1]
[q1]>currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to proceed from[/q1]
[q1]>that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and development and not[/q1]
[q1]>one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they tend[/q1]
[q1]>to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and[/q1]
[q1]>development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is there a[/q1]
[q1]>back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree such as company[/q1]
[q1]>training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed education route ?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very[/q1]
[q1]>difficult exam ?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

Ummm...isn't the whole point of the exam to qualify people who otherwise (education) don't qualify?

I was speaking with a security guard a number of years ago, and she was complaining that she had to
learn Morse Code to get her ham licence. Her reasoning was that she only wanted the licence for a
very specific purpose, work, and therefore should get an exemption, as she'd never "need" Morse code
on the job. I wonder if the ham operators who apparently filled a big void on September 11th used
any Morse Code?

Tom
0
Jim Backus
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#3
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:55:49, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]> An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer[/q1]
[q1]> but doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main[/q1]
[q1]> reason for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The[/q1]
[q1]> student is currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to[/q1]
[q1]> proceed from that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and[/q1]
[q1]> development and not one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they tend[/q1]
[q1]> to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and[/q1]
[q1]> development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is there a[/q1]
[q1]> back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree such as company[/q1]
[q1]> training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed education route ?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very[/q1]
[q1]> difficult exam ?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

It is very unlikely that he'd get a job in electronics R&D without some sort of higher education. It
is remotely possible that a small company would employ him, but he could well find himself on a low
salary and unable to move jobs.

There is a shortage of new electronics engineers, so it is possible that company sponsorships
would be available. Apprenticeships are virtually non-existent these days and are unlikely to lead
to R&D work.

It used to be possible to get exemption to get into the IEE by writing suitably erudite technical
papers, but I doubt it is an easy way in. The question must arise, how could someone without formal
electronics education write a sufficiently impressive paper to gain admission.

My œ0.02 is that the cost of a studying for a degree would be the best thing for him to do.

The positive aspect of the current shortage of qualified engineers is that salaries are gradually
improving and employment prospects are good at least in certain industry sectors.

--
Jim Backus C Eng MIEE bona fide replies to jimb(at)jita(dot)demon(dot)co(do t)uk
http://www.jita.demon.co.uk
0
Andrew Vk3bfa
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The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected] ive.co.uk>...
[q1]> An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer[/q1]
[q1]> but doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main[/q1]
[q1]> reason for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The[/q1]
[q1]> student is currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to[/q1]
[q1]> proceed from that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and[/q1]
[q1]> development and not one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they tend[/q1]
[q1]> to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and[/q1]
[q1]> development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is there a[/q1]
[q1]> back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree such as company[/q1]
[q1]> training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed education route ?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
He needs to decide what he wants to do first - ANY degree in ANY discipline is going to cost money,
so his choice is tertiary education or not. If he has a burning desire to be a engineer (or
whatever) then he will do it and probably be good at it - if he is undecided, then find something
else he wants to do - there are too many people with mediocre qualifications out there already.

[q1]> Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very[/q1]
[q1]> difficult exam ?[/q1]

The whole idea of proffessional bodies is to ensure that their members are worthy of the title
"Professional xxxx" - why bother having them if you dont need any qualifications, they recognise
this and so the entrance exam is for those few people who are really good at what they do but dont
have the qualifications on paper.
0
Jim Thompson
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On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:15:42 GMT, [email protected] (Tom MacIntyre), In Newsgroup:
sci.electronics.misc, Article: <[email protected]>, Entitled: "Re: Can you become a
professional electronic engineer without a degree", Wrote the following:

[q1]|On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:55:49 +0100, The Technical Manager[/q1]
[q1]|<[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[snip]
[q1]|>Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very[/q1]
[q1]|>difficult exam ?[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Ummm...isn't the whole point of the exam to qualify people who |otherwise (education)[/q1]
don't qualify?
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|I was speaking with a security guard a number of years ago, and she |was complaining that she had[/q1]
to learn Morse Code to get her ham |licence. Her reasoning was that she only wanted the licence for
a very |specific purpose, work, and therefore should get an exemption, as |she'd never "need" Morse
code on the job. I wonder if the ham |operators who apparently filled a big void on September 11th
used any |Morse Code?
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Tom[/q1]

I seriously doubt it.

...Jim Thompson
--
[q1]| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and[/q1]
[q1]| Discrete Systems | manus | Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | | [email protected]_innovations.com[/q1]
[q1]| Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |[/q1]

For proper E-mail replies SWAP "-" and "_"

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
0
The Technical M
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#6
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#6
Jim Backus wrote:

[q1]> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:55:49, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer[/q2]
[q2]> > but doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main[/q2]
[q2]> > reason for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The[/q2]
[q2]> > student is currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where[/q2]
[q2]> > to proceed from that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and[/q2]
[q2]> > development and not one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they[/q2]
[q2]> > tend to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and[/q2]
[q2]> > development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is there[/q2]
[q2]> > a back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree such as[/q2]
[q2]> > company training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed education[/q2]
[q2]> > route ?[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very difficult[/q2]
[q2]> > exam ?[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It is very unlikely that he'd get a job in electronics R&D without some sort of higher education.[/q1]
[q1]> It is remotely possible that a small company would employ him, but he could well find himself on a[/q1]
[q1]> low salary and unable to move jobs.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> There is a shortage of new electronics engineers, so it is possible that company sponsorships[/q1]
[q1]> would be available.[/q1]

What exactly in detail are the company sponsorships and what sort of money do they pay ?

[q1]> Apprenticeships are virtually non-existent these days and are unlikely to lead to R&D work.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It used to be possible to get exemption to get into the IEE by writing suitably erudite technical[/q1]
[q1]> papers, but I doubt it is an easy way in. The question must arise, how could someone without[/q1]
[q1]> formal electronics education write a sufficiently impressive paper to gain admission.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> My ?0.02 is that the cost of a studying for a degree would be the best thing for him to do.[/q1]

So a degree is best. What about an HND ? Are these really worth it ?

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The positive aspect of the current shortage of qualified engineers is that salaries are gradually[/q1]
[q1]> improving and employment prospects are good at least in certain industry sectors.[/q1]

One big catch to this is that most graduate electronic engineering jobs are located in areas with
very high house prices. In many cases an engineer earning £30,000 pa can't get a mortage for even
the smallest house.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> --[/q1]
[q1]> Jim Backus C Eng MIEE bona fide replies to jimb(at)jita(dot)demon(dot)co(do t)uk[/q1]
[q1]> http://www.jita.demon.co.uk[/q1]
0
The Technical M
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#7
Andrew VK3BFA wrote:

[q1]> The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:<[email protected] ive.co.uk>...[/q1]
[q2]> > An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer[/q2]
[q2]> > but doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main[/q2]
[q2]> > reason for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The[/q2]
[q2]> > student is currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where[/q2]
[q2]> > to proceed from that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and[/q2]
[q2]> > development and not one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they[/q2]
[q2]> > tend to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and[/q2]
[q2]> > development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is there[/q2]
[q2]> > a back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree such as[/q2]
[q2]> > company training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed education[/q2]
[q2]> > route ?[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]> He needs to decide what he wants to do first - ANY degree in ANY discipline is going to cost[/q1]
[q1]> money, so his choice is tertiary education or not. If he has a burning desire to be a engineer (or[/q1]
[q1]> whatever) then he will do it and probably be good at it - if he is undecided, then find something[/q1]
[q1]> else he wants to do - there are too many people with mediocre qualifications out there already.[/q1]

I think it is the opposite of this. He is studying A levels in physics, maths and electronics and
definitely wants to work in electronics R&D. He is not undecided and will get an A grade in
electronics and at least a B grade in the other two subjects.

Thats why I asked about the back door route.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very difficult[/q2]
[q2]> > exam ?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The whole idea of proffessional bodies is to ensure that their members are worthy of the title[/q1]
[q1]> "Professional xxxx" - why bother having them if you dont need any qualifications, they recognise[/q1]
[q1]> this and so the entrance exam is for those few people who are really good at what they do but dont[/q1]
[q1]> have the qualifications on paper.[/q1]
0
Don Stauffer
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#8
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#8
I have worked with a number of non-degreed engineers. They started as technicians, worked for a
number of years in that slot, and were so good that when they neared the top of their pay scale
they were given title of engineer in order to keep them and allow them to move up the engineer pay
grade levels.

There is also a question about the term 'professional' in the original post. That term has a
specific meaning in many states. In most cases if you are an employee of a large firm there is no
need to get a 'professional' license, even though you are getting paid as an engineer.

You need the professional license in most states to act as a consultant or do work involving
construction and civil engineering, but not for designing products such as radios, computers, etc.
--
Don Stauffer in Minnesota [email protected] webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
0
Patrick Bolton
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#9
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It's pretty difficult to get into any electronics job in the UK these days without some
qualifications. I have an HNC and work in R&D, but I was sponsored through training by Marconi who
needed junior engineers in R&D at that time. There is a big shortfall of engineers within the UK, if
your student really doesn't want to do a degree on his own then sponsorship is the best bet, and
probably quicker than going the hard way. Ok at the end you may have some debts but you are a more
saleable item and if you do get sponsorship it's an almost clear line into a job.

Patrick Bolton

"The Technical Manager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Andrew VK3BFA wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q2]
news:<[email protected] ive.co.uk>...
[q3]> > > An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic[/q3]
[q3]> > > engineer but doesn't want to go to university[/q3]
to
[q3]> > > study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main reason for this is financial as[/q3]
[q3]> > > university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The student is currently studying[/q3]
[q3]> > > maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to proceed from that point[/q3]
[q3]> > > onwards.[/q3]
He
[q3]> > > definitely wants a career in electronics research and development and not one as a technician,[/q3]
[q3]> > > factory worker or in IT.[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they[/q3]
[q3]> > > tend to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research[/q3]
[q3]> > > and development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into them. Is[/q3]
[q3]> > > there a back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer without a degree[/q3]
[q3]> > > such as company training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience and company financed[/q3]
[q3]> > > education route ?[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q2]> > He needs to decide what he wants to do first - ANY degree in ANY discipline is going to cost[/q2]
[q2]> > money, so his choice is tertiary education or not. If he has a burning desire to be a engineer[/q2]
[q2]> > (or whatever) then he will do it and probably be good at it - if he is undecided, then find[/q2]
[q2]> > something else he wants to do - there are too many people with mediocre qualifications out there[/q2]
[q2]> > already.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I think it is the opposite of this. He is studying A levels in physics,[/q1]
maths and electronics and definitely wants
[q1]> to work in electronics R&D. He is not undecided and will get an A grade in[/q1]
electronics and at least a B grade in
[q1]> the other two subjects.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Thats why I asked about the back door route.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q3]> > > Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very[/q3]
[q3]> > > difficult exam ?[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > The whole idea of proffessional bodies is to ensure that their members are worthy of the title[/q2]
[q2]> > "Professional xxxx" - why bother having them if you dont need any qualifications, they recognise[/q2]
[q2]> > this and so the entrance exam is for those few people who are really good at what they do but[/q2]
[q2]> > dont have the qualifications on paper.[/q2]
0
The Technical M
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#10
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#10
Patrick Bolton wrote:

[q1]> It's pretty difficult to get into any electronics job in the UK these days without some[/q1]
[q1]> qualifications.[/q1]

Err but the student will have three A levels one of which is electronics.

[q1]> I have an HNC and work in R&D, but I was sponsored through training by Marconi who needed junior[/q1]
[q1]> engineers in R&D at that time. There is a big shortfall of engineers within the UK, if your[/q1]
[q1]> student really doesn't want to do a degree on his own then sponsorship is the best bet, and[/q1]
[q1]> probably quicker than going the hard way.[/q1]

Its mainly for financial reasons with the tuition fees and the like.

[q1]> Ok at the end you may have some debts but you are a more saleable item and if you do get[/q1]
[q1]> sponsorship it's an almost clear line into a job.[/q1]

I would query that one.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Patrick Bolton[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "The Technical Manager" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]> > Andrew VK3BFA wrote:[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q3]> > > The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q3]
[q1]> news:<[email protected] ive.co.uk>...[/q1]
[q3]> > > > An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic[/q3]
[q3]> > > > engineer but doesn't want to go to university[/q3]
[q1]> to[/q1]
[q3]> > > > study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main reason for this is financial as[/q3]
[q3]> > > > university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The student is currently[/q3]
[q3]> > > > studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to proceed from[/q3]
[q3]> > > > that point onwards.[/q3]
[q1]> He[/q1]
[q3]> > > > definitely wants a career in electronics research and development and not one as a[/q3]
[q3]> > > > technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q3]
[q3]> > > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > > From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but[/q3]
[q3]> > > > they tend to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design,[/q3]
[q3]> > > > research and development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get[/q3]
[q3]> > > > into them. Is there a back door route into becoming a professional electronics engineer[/q3]
[q3]> > > > without a degree such as company training, some apprenticeship system or a work experience[/q3]
[q3]> > > > and company financed education route ?[/q3]
[q3]> > > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > He needs to decide what he wants to do first - ANY degree in ANY discipline is going to cost[/q3]
[q3]> > > money, so his choice is tertiary education or not. If he has a burning desire to be a engineer[/q3]
[q3]> > > (or whatever) then he will do it and probably be good at it - if he is undecided, then find[/q3]
[q3]> > > something else he wants to do - there are too many people with mediocre qualifications out[/q3]
[q3]> > > there already.[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I think it is the opposite of this. He is studying A levels in physics,[/q2]
[q1]> maths and electronics and definitely wants[/q1]
[q2]> > to work in electronics R&D. He is not undecided and will get an A grade in[/q2]
[q1]> electronics and at least a B grade in[/q1]
[q2]> > the other two subjects.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Thats why I asked about the back door route.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > > Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very[/q3]
[q3]> > > > difficult exam ?[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > The whole idea of proffessional bodies is to ensure that their members are worthy of the title[/q3]
[q3]> > > "Professional xxxx" - why bother having them if you dont need any qualifications, they[/q3]
[q3]> > > recognise this and so the entrance exam is for those few people who are really good at what[/q3]
[q3]> > > they do but dont have the qualifications on paper.[/q3]
0
Chris Guy
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#11
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#11
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:55:49 +0100, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer but[/q1]
[q1]>doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main reason[/q1]
[q1]>for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The student is[/q1]
[q1]>currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to proceed from[/q1]
[q1]>that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and development and not[/q1]
[q1]>one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
etc etc

Of course you can progress through the ranks to higher status jobs but you will never become a
chartered engineer without 4 years (Master's level) post A-level education, at an accredited
University.

The other point to consider is how much you will lose in salary by being a technician for 'n'
years compared with 3 or 4 years of poverty and debt as a student, followed by much higher
salaries from the off.

At the risk of being trite, and re-phrasing the old cliche, "if you think education is expensive,
try ignorance"

Chris Guy
0
The Technical M
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#12
Report 17 years ago
#12
Chris Guy wrote:

[q1]> On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:55:49 +0100, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer[/q2]
[q2]> >but doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main[/q2]
[q2]> >reason for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The[/q2]
[q2]> >student is currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to[/q2]
[q2]> >proceed from that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and[/q2]
[q2]> >development and not one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]> etc etc[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Of course you can progress through the ranks to higher status jobs but you will never become a[/q1]
[q1]> chartered engineer without 4 years (Master's level) post A-level education, at an accredited[/q1]
[q1]> University.[/q1]

When you say masters level do you mean an undergraduate masters (MEng) or a postgraduate masters
(BEng and then MSc) ? Also are postgraduate masters courses open to those without a degree but have
spent several years in industry or have an HND ?

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The other point to consider is how much you will lose in salary by being a technician for 'n'[/q1]
[q1]> years compared with 3 or 4 years of poverty and debt as a student, followed by much higher[/q1]
[q1]> salaries from the off.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> At the risk of being trite, and re-phrasing the old cliche, "if you think education is expensive,[/q1]
[q1]> try ignorance"[/q1]

So you definitely recommend a degree as opposed to the industrial experience route. What about an
HND as opposed to a degree ?
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me
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#13
The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]> I think it is the opposite of this. He is studying A levels in physics, maths and electronics and[/q1]
[q1]> definitely wants to work in electronics R&D. He is not undecided and will get an A grade in[/q1]
[q1]> electronics and at least a B grade in the other two subjects.[/q1]

[q1]> Thats why I asked about the back door route.[/q1]

It is possible to become an engineer w/o a degree, but I think it's a *LOT* harder than simply
getting a degree.

I don't know why paying tuition is such a big issue. I ended up with a sizable amount of debt, but
at the end of the 2nd year in work I paid off everything in one lump sum.

[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> > Also is it possible to become a member of the IEE without a BEng or taking their very difficult[/q2]
[q2]>> > exam ?[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> The whole idea of proffessional bodies is to ensure that their members are worthy of the title[/q2]
[q2]>> "Professional xxxx" - why bother having them if you dont need any qualifications, they recognise[/q2]
[q2]>> this and so the entrance exam is for those few people who are really good at what they do but[/q2]
[q2]>> dont have the qualifications on paper.[/q2]

--
*** This space is for rent ***
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me
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#14
The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> Of course you can progress through the ranks to higher status jobs but you will never become a[/q2]
[q2]>> chartered engineer without 4 years (Master's level) post A-level education, at an accredited[/q2]
[q2]>> University.[/q2]

[q1]> When you say masters level do you mean an undergraduate masters (MEng) or a postgraduate masters[/q1]
[q1]> (BEng and then MSc) ? Also are postgraduate masters courses open to those without a degree but[/q1]
[q1]> have spent several years in industry or have an HND ?[/q1]

As far as I know, to enroll into a masters program, one gotta have an undergraduate degree. There
might be some exception to this, but for most mortals, this is how it works.

While it's good to have a BS in the same discipline, a lesser degree in an unrelated discipline
could be acceptable, so there's some room there for maneuvering.
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Ms Bob
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#15
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#15
[q1]>The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]>news:<[email protected] five.co.uk>...[/q1]
[q2]>> An A level student I was talking to recently wants to become a professional electronic engineer[/q2]
[q2]>> but doesn't want to go to university to study for a degree in electronic engineering. The main[/q2]
[q2]>> reason for this is financial as university students in the UK now have to pay tuition fees. The[/q2]
[q2]>> student is currently studying maths, physics and electronics to A level and doesn't know where to[/q2]
[q2]>> proceed from that point onwards. He definitely wants a career in electronics research and[/q2]
[q2]>> development and not one as a technician, factory worker or in IT.[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> From what I have seen it seems as if you can get an electronics job without a degree but they[/q2]
[q2]>> tend to be things like assembly, test, installation or repair work. All the design, research and[/q2]
[q2]>> development jobs I have seen advertised require a BEng degree minimum to get into[/q2]

Assuming that the student can get financing (employment, loans, grants) to go to university, I think
that is the best solution by far.

While the tuition fees may seem high given his present income, it should be compared to his salary
after graduating plus 2 years work experience, then it will seem far more manageable amount.

Compare the tuition fees to those job advertisement salary ranges.

In my opinion the best thing you can do for the student, is encourage him to get a good education,
and if you can, help him find relevant summer jobs. The education and work experience will open
doors in the future.
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Chris Guy
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#16
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#16
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:32:22 +0100, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>Chris Guy wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>> Of course you can progress through the ranks to higher status jobs but you will never become a[/q2]
[q2]>> chartered engineer without 4 years (Master's level) post A-level education, at an accredited[/q2]
[q2]>> University.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>When you say masters level do you mean an undergraduate masters (MEng) or a postgraduate masters[/q1]
[q1]>(BEng and then MSc) ? Also are postgraduate masters courses open to those without a degree but have[/q1]
[q1]>spent several years in industry or have an HND ?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
Either is possible .The Engineering Council recommend an MEng or a BEng followed by what they call a
'matching section'. They have never defined precisily what they mean by a matching section but an
MSc is likely to be one possibility. Most Universiites would not allow an HND onto an MSc, however
much expericence they had. The issue would be knowledge of basic theory and mathematics, which the
HND route tends to downplay.

[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> The other point to consider is how much you will lose in salary by being a technician for 'n'[/q2]
[q2]>> years compared with 3 or 4 years of poverty and debt as a student, followed by much higher[/q2]
[q2]>> salaries from the off.[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> At the risk of being trite, and re-phrasing the old cliche, "if you think education is expensive,[/q2]
[q2]>> try ignorance"[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>So you definitely recommend a degree as opposed to the industrial experience route. What about an[/q1]
[q1]>HND as opposed to a degree ?[/q1]

I certianly do. To give one example of the benefits look at the changes that occurred when
waveguides gave way to optical fibres. The long-serving experienced type was lost in the new world
(of course I generalise), whereas the graduate (if they had paid attention to their studies) had the
knowledge of Maxwell's equations etc to allow them to make a smooth transisition.

Hope this helps,

Chris Guy
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Ada
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Well I disagree. When I did my HND we did quite a lot of maths including calculus...

Chris Guy wrote:

[q1]> On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:32:22 +0100, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >Chris Guy wrote:[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >> Of course you can progress through the ranks to higher status jobs but you will never become a[/q2]
[q2]> >> chartered engineer without 4 years (Master's level) post A-level education, at an accredited[/q2]
[q2]> >> University.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >When you say masters level do you mean an undergraduate masters (MEng) or a postgraduate masters[/q2]
[q2]> >(BEng and then MSc) ? Also are postgraduate masters courses open to those without a degree but[/q2]
[q2]> >have spent several years in industry or have an HND ?[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]> Either is possible .The Engineering Council recommend an MEng or a BEng followed by what they call[/q1]
[q1]> a 'matching section'. They have never defined precisily what they mean by a matching section but[/q1]
[q1]> an MSc is likely to be one possibility. Most Universiites would not allow an HND onto an MSc,[/q1]
[q1]> however much expericence they had. The issue would be knowledge of basic theory and mathematics,[/q1]
[q1]> which the HND route tends to downplay.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >>[/q2]
[q2]> >> The other point to consider is how much you will lose in salary by being a technician for 'n'[/q2]
[q2]> >> years compared with 3 or 4 years of poverty and debt as a student, followed by much higher[/q2]
[q2]> >> salaries from the off.[/q2]
[q2]> >>[/q2]
[q2]> >> At the risk of being trite, and re-phrasing the old cliche, "if you think education is[/q2]
[q2]> >> expensive, try ignorance"[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >So you definitely recommend a degree as opposed to the industrial experience route. What about an[/q2]
[q2]> >HND as opposed to a degree ?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I certianly do. To give one example of the benefits look at the changes that occurred when[/q1]
[q1]> waveguides gave way to optical fibres. The long-serving experienced type was lost in the new world[/q1]
[q1]> (of course I generalise), whereas the graduate (if they had paid attention to their studies) had[/q1]
[q1]> the knowledge of Maxwell's equations etc to allow them to make a smooth transisition.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Hope this helps,[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Chris Guy[/q1]
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Chris Guy
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#18
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#18
On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:41:44 +1200, ada <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>Well I disagree. When I did my HND we did quite a lot of maths including calculus...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
We accept lots of ex-HND candidates onto our degree courses (as year-2 entry) and they are
invariably less well prepared in Mathematics. Note I didn't say weaker - that depends on the
individual. However, they will have done less maths than is commonly taught in a traditional A-level
followed by 1st year engineering course.

Chris
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The Technical M
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#19
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#19
ada wrote:

[q1]> Well I disagree. When I did my HND we did quite a lot of maths including calculus...[/q1]

You do calculus at A level. Did you study vector calculus the core component of Maxwell's
Equations ?

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Chris Guy wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:32:22 +0100, The Technical Manager <[email protected]> wrote:[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q3]> > >Chris Guy wrote:[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > >> Of course you can progress through the ranks to higher status jobs but you will never become[/q3]
[q3]> > >> a chartered engineer without 4 years (Master's level) post A-level education, at an[/q3]
[q3]> > >> accredited University.[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > >When you say masters level do you mean an undergraduate masters (MEng) or a postgraduate[/q3]
[q3]> > >masters (BEng and then MSc) ? Also are postgraduate masters courses open to those without a[/q3]
[q3]> > >degree but have spent several years in industry or have an HND ?[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q2]> > Either is possible .The Engineering Council recommend an MEng or a BEng followed by what they[/q2]
[q2]> > call a 'matching section'. They have never defined precisily what they mean by a matching[/q2]
[q2]> > section but an MSc is likely to be one possibility. Most Universiites would not allow an HND[/q2]
[q2]> > onto an MSc, however much expericence they had. The issue would be knowledge of basic theory and[/q2]
[q2]> > mathematics, which the HND route tends to downplay.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q3]> > >>[/q3]
[q3]> > >> The other point to consider is how much you will lose in salary by being a technician for 'n'[/q3]
[q3]> > >> years compared with 3 or 4 years of poverty and debt as a student, followed by much higher[/q3]
[q3]> > >> salaries from the off.[/q3]
[q3]> > >>[/q3]
[q3]> > >> At the risk of being trite, and re-phrasing the old cliche, "if you think education is[/q3]
[q3]> > >> expensive, try ignorance"[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > >So you definitely recommend a degree as opposed to the industrial experience route. What about[/q3]
[q3]> > >an HND as opposed to a degree ?[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I certianly do. To give one example of the benefits look at the changes that occurred when[/q2]
[q2]> > waveguides gave way to optical fibres. The long-serving experienced type was lost in the new[/q2]
[q2]> > world (of course I generalise), whereas the graduate (if they had paid attention to their[/q2]
[q2]> > studies) had the knowledge of Maxwell's equations etc to allow them to make a smooth[/q2]
[q2]> > transisition.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Hope this helps,[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Chris Guy[/q2]
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The Technical M
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#20
Chris Guy wrote:

[q1]> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:41:44 +1200, ada <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >Well I disagree. When I did my HND we did quite a lot of maths including calculus...[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]> We accept lots of ex-HND candidates onto our degree courses (as year-2 entry) and they are[/q1]
[q1]> invariably less well prepared in Mathematics. Note I didn't say weaker - that depends on the[/q1]
[q1]> individual. However, they will have done less maths than is commonly taught in a traditional[/q1]
[q1]> A-level followed by 1st year engineering course.[/q1]

It is the type of maths that matters. Lots of what I learnt during my degree course in the mid 1990s
I find I just don't use. Like all those techniques to analytically integrate every compound function
under the sun or how two solve two differential equations by taking Laplace transforms and the use
of matrices.

Certain topics I use but didn't cover in the maths modules are statistics, probability, numerical
methods, mathematical modelling and optimisation techniques.
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