Should the vote be given to 16 year olds? Watch

caroline147
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#61
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#61
(Original post by RollerBall)
What 16 year old pays tax?
They're eligible to pay Income Tax. Then there's National Insurance and Council Tax. & if you work, then VAT is coming from money you've earnt.

16 year olds can end up paying quite a bit.
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DammitBauer
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#62
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#62
(Original post by caroline147)
:eyebrow:

That's exactly why I explicitly stated 'in my experience'. I was simply using myself as an example to show that not all 16/17 year olds are apathetic about politics. Additionally, you have never met me and, therefore, have no reason to believe I'm incorrect except for your condescending prejudice

Moreover, politics certainly affects everyone but that has little to do with knowledge of the subject. To state otherwise is, in itself, extremely naive.

24 is awesome though
Well aren't you just precious...

In all seriousness, I actually wasn't sure whether to submit that section of my post for fear of being misunderstood like this. In fact I wasn't even talking about you, people of your age group or any generation in particular.

Oh and thanks for the neg rep, whoever sent it. Would a well put conversational response like the one above not suffice?
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caroline147
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#63
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(Original post by DammitBauer)
Well aren't you just precious...
:yep:

(Original post by DammitBauer)
In all seriousness, I actually wasn't sure whether to submit that section of my post for fear of being misunderstood like this. In fact I wasn't even talking about you, people of your age group or any generation in particular.
Hmm, what did you mean then?
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RollerBall
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#64
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#64
(Original post by caroline147)
They're eligible to pay Income Tax. Then there's National Insurance and Council Tax. & if you work, then VAT is coming from money you've earnt.

16 year olds can end up paying quite a bit.
I work and I pay nout in NI and nout in Council/Income tax. VAT is unavoidable and to an extent, every-one pays it.

I doupt many sixteen year olds would be above the earnings thresholds to be taxed.
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caroline147
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#65
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(Original post by RollerBall)
I work and I pay nout in NI and nout in Council/Income tax. VAT is unavoidable and to an extent, every-one pays it.

I doupt many sixteen year olds would be above the earnings thresholds to be taxed.
Mm, but surely the point is based on the individual's eligibility for taxation not on whether they actually end up paying it? Otherwise, following your logic, poor people would also forfeit the right to vote.
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Emers
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#66
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#66
Yes, the vote should be given to 16 year olds. Definitely.

Some adults have no clue about politics and have no idea why they're voting for a particular party - I know quite a few sensible 16 year olds who are politically aware, and I think they should be allowed to have a say in how the country is being run. We live in a supposedly democratic society and denying 16 year olds the right to vote is ridiculous. They are citizens of this country, too. Besides, how can you decide that the age of consent should be 16, but the voting age should be 18? If someone is mature enough to be involved in a sexual relationship, they're mature enough to vote.
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Stomm
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#67
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#67
It should be taken away from anyone under the age of 25, and anyone over the age of 65. Those that are too young are to infantile to be able to make a rational decision, and those too old, well they're just not completely there anymore now are they?

Also exclude those with a criminal record, and those that have not served their country in at least some manner for a minimum period of a year. This can be in the armed forces, teaching, employment in the NHS, Civil Service, local council, etc... Or voluntary work...
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rofflewaffle
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#68
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I don't think so, because a) you would get loads of 16/17 year olds just voting for a laugh and b) most 16 year olds don't care/know anything about politics.
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Longorefisher
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Bagration)
More importantly, should 16 year olds be allowed to go on jury service?

The answer is obviously yes. Children have a sense of humanity that adults just lack.
I think this point is the most interesting made. You could argue that every person has a social contract with the state, fulfilling responsibilities (i.e. Jury Service - the responsibility of being labelled to your crimes). Until you assume all the responsibilties of your social contract then you cannot receive all the social rights - which include the right to vote to determine how society is run.
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Bagration
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#70
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(Original post by Longorefisher)
I think this point is the most interesting made. You could argue that every person has a social contract with the state, fulfilling responsibilities (i.e. Jury Service - the responsibility of being labelled to your crimes). Until you assume all the responsibilties of your social contract then you cannot receive all the social rights - which include the right to vote to determine how society is run.
Actually, I wasn't getting at that at all, but I can see how you drew that conclusion. Really, I was making a facetious stab at how I think a free & working judiciary under the common law is more important than a diverse legislature. I'm not a contractarian -- I don't agree that there is a concept of "right" and "responsibility", but again, I understand it would have been easy to draw that conclusion.

(Original post by Stomm)
It should be taken away from anyone under the age of 25, and anyone over the age of 65. Those that are too young are to infantile to be able to make a rational decision, and those too old, well they're just not completely there anymore now are they?

Also exclude those with a criminal record, and those that have not served their country in at least some manner for a minimum period of a year. This can be in the armed forces, teaching, employment in the NHS, Civil Service, local council, etc... Or voluntary work...
Don't you think that this is a little authoritarian?

Incidentally, private sector jobs have value, too: otherwise they wouldn't exist. People exchange their labour for hard-earned Pounds. That they direct those Pounds which they worked so hard for to certain industries is a reflection on their belief that that industry has value. For instance, the baker, the butcher, the newsagent or the solicitor have a great value to society. We know that this is a fact because people are willing to pay for their services. To many people, private enterprise is more useful to their needs than any Public service. They may claim something different, they may proclaim their love for the NHS or for the Civil Service, but their actions in the marketplace speak louder than their words.

On the other hand, I'm interested in the somewhat Heinlein-ian concept of Service in exchange for Suffrage. I agree with national service in the main (or at least, I disagree with standing armies) and I find some arguments compelling.
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Anon the 7th
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#71
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#71
no because theyre too young and most of them dont even understand politics
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Poppy1992
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#72
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#72
(Original post by dannymccs)
Thus indicating that some proportion of your friends are interested in politics- why should they be denied the right to vote just because you wouldn't care to exercise the right if it were granted to you?

I'm 20, and, unlike most of my friends, do have an interest in politics. Yet they have the right to vote- and a 16 year old with a strong interest and a desire to be involved in politics cannot be...surely this is wrong?
Well 1 is, as her dad is the local MP!

I understand what you're saying, and yes it would be great for those interested in politics to have the right to vote, but I just feel that most 16 year olds would not put much thought into it and would probably vote for whomever their parents did.
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Ipso Facto
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#73
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(Original post by amy1395)
I don't think so, because a) you would get loads of 16/17 year olds just voting for a laugh and b) most 16 year olds don't care/know anything about politics.
A) I think you're giving far too much 'credit' on the part of the laugh-seeking 16/17 year olds; as I've said previously, exactly how entertaining is it causing/watching the Monster Raving Loony Party et al getting about 30 votes more than normal etc?

B) The use of the word 'most' indicates that some 16/17 year olds do care/know something about politics; some will choose to simply ignore the right they are being granted- as many current voters do- but others will exercise it. That's the beauty of our non-compulsory electoral system...
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Ipso Facto
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#74
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(Original post by Poppy1992)
Well 1 is, as her dad is the local MP!

I understand what you're saying, and yes it would be great for those interested in politics to have the right to vote, but I just feel that most 16 year olds would not put much thought into it and would probably vote for whomever their parents did.
And while I understand your argument about not putting much thought into it, that is also true of some voters whatever their age. Parental support for a party can play a huge influence on who their children support- not just at 16 or 18 etc. but for large portions of adulthood. I just can't agree that entrenching this two year difference cures the problems and issues which actually affect people across a wide range of ages in the electorate.
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Ipso Facto
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#75
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(Original post by Anon the 7th)
no because theyre too young and most of them dont even understand politics
You've made the same two arguments that were made on the opening page of this thread and I'll answer them in exactly the same way; if they're too young to vote, should they be able to have sex, pay tax to a government they can't elect, fight and die for the country in the armed forces etc? And to the second point, 'most' implies that some people that age do understand politics so why should their rights be infringed simply because others don't care about having the vote?
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lee_91
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#76
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i say no, cos when i was in school i was immature and would have voted for BNP anyday, as would most of my mates, yet now im more mature and want to look into what the parties actually stand for before voting when i turn 18.

just would use the vote to screw up society and to rebel aginst those who try to give them informed choices...
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smellslikemarmite
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#77
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Yes, because the immature ****** little 16 year olds won't want to vote, but the ones who are actually quite mature and are able to make an informed decision will want to vote.

If you're paying tax, you should decide where it goes. End.
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Venom123
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#78
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No. Simple fact is back in the day when they'd have a vote between 'Kenan and Kel' and 'Sabrina the teenage witch' on Nickleodeon - they'd vote for Sabrina the teenage witch... Bloomin' Ridiculous - Kenan and Kel never got a look in.
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Spanghew
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#79
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I don't think it's unreasonable to reserve voting for adults only.

I know people's maturity is not necessarily the same thing as their age, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
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bennh
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#80
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I would say so, but now that education will now be compulsory until the age of 18 anyway, then there might be less point (based on the argument that if they can go out to full-time work, then they would be paying tax and therefore should vote for the reason that they could decide what is done with their money).

But... I really feel there is a lack of "political" education anyway. Half the political discussions you hear in the average pub are so cringeworthy I really resent that there isn't a means of everyone gaining more political understanding before the voting age.
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