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Abortion watch

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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Having your cake and eating it, is that what you call it? Trust me, I would LOVE it if I could shift the baby out of my uterus and into yours. I would hate to have an abortion. The thought of it makes me feel sick. It would be a terrible decision to have to make, I'm sure you agree. This isn't me 'gloating' at the fact that I have the right to kill babies and there's nothing I can do about it. This is a biological fact that it's women whose bodies are hijacked by pregnancy, therefore it's them who have the right to choose an abortion. I would much, much rather this wasn't the case.
    Why do you feel bad? This whole issue centres around whether or not you think it's a baby. If you feel bad for having an abortion or considering it you clearly think it's a baby, and the majority of women who get abortions do feel this way given that we spend millions and millions of pounds rebuilding women who have made this disasterous decision. Further to this abortion doesn't save any lives either, it was allowed because people were getting illegal abortions and dieing. However the death rate of illegal abortions combined with their low number means less deaths than the low death rate with a higher number of legal abortions.

    As far as i'm concerned it is a baby. Women have the choice about whether or not it goes there, and if they do get pregnant despite trying everything that is the risk she and her partner made when engaging in sexual activity. I do agree an abortion is a terrible thing to go through, because it is killing your own flesh and blood.

    I presume you think there should be a time limit? But why, nothing really changes from week 20-22, and it is still in a womans womb, so surely she should be able to get rid of it the day before it's born?
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    I think a limit of 20 weeks is sensible.
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    (Original post by A Stranger in Moscow)
    What if she was raped? Pressured into it by school friends, boyfriend? And yeah, if she's waited 3 months before knowing then panicked for a month or two, that is 2nd trimester.
    She can get one if raped, in my opinion.

    (Original post by emmie19)
    Fine. Same to you. I don't think in this day and age it's up to you. With condoms and pills,sex is more for pleasure now.

    Murder, then God murders a lot. A abortion is a man-made miscarriage. If women didn't have miscarriages then I'll disagree.

    How selfish of you to judge. You're not a women. How dare you say a women should give up on her life, her career, her future for you and your petty ideals. It's very insulting.
    So her career is more important than the most wonderous thing on earth, the life of a new human child.

    If someone I slept with got pregnant, I would do the right thing, get married and raise the child.

    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    Bear in mind that Don is a fundamentalist Christian dingbat who believes that we shouldn't be allowed to kill beings which aren't recognisably human and have less mental capacity than a lizard, but should be allowed to kill doctors doing their job.
    No, I don't actually. I don't think ti should be their jo in the first place.

    And they are clearly human, they have the DNA to prove it.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    If my girlfriend got pregnant and didn't want it I would be more than happy to take it, rather than it getting killed.
    Fine. But it's up to the woman. And I won't be getting it back lol.

    On a serious note, having a baby alive can also be psychological damaging for the mother. Not raising their own child, how may grow to hate her because she give him/her up. It's not simple.
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    (Original post by emmie19)
    You're a male. You don't understand. You can walk away from the child. The mother could be a great lawyer, a great doctor, who now lives on a council estate with no man to love her.

    How would you like that?

    P.S. A abortion is a man made miscarriage
    Don't have sex with losers who don't love you then.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Then you pay for it when its born, and for the rest of its life? Or don't get pregnant in the first place? MMMMM having your cake and eating it.
    This fails to resonate when so many fathers avoid paying child maintenance.
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    (Original post by emmie19)
    Fine. But it's up to the woman. And I won't be getting it back lol.

    On a serious note, having a baby alive can also be psychological damaging for the mother. Not raising their own child, how may grow to hate her because she give him/her up. It's not simple.
    If having a baby will psychologically damage you and ruin your life may I suggest not running the risk? O let me guess, you want to have sex? Well who cares how many babies have to die for the pleasure.
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    (Original post by Olivia_Lightbulb)
    This fails to resonate when so many fathers avoid paying child maintenance.
    If abortion exists then men should have the right to say before it's born that they want nothing to do with it, financially or careing.
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    (Original post by emmie19)
    You're a male. You don't understand. You can walk away from the child. The mother could be a great lawyer, a great doctor, who now lives on a council estate with no man to love her.

    How would you like that?

    P.S. A abortion is a man made miscarriage
    You seem to have misunderstood my position, I haven't actually spoken about my views on abortion at all. My views are roughly concurrent with those of Judith Jarvis Thomson (who Don would hate because she's a feminist) insofar as I believe that there is a moral distinction between killing and allowing to die. I'd therefore be willing to allow abortion up until the point of viability, at which point the foetus could survive outside of the womb, because by this stage any attempt to terminate the foetus would be killing it, rather than allowing it to die by depriving it of the conditions necessary for its survival.

    And I hate the line "you're a man so you wouldn't understand". I don't take drugs but I'm in favour of drug legalisation, I'm not terminally ill but I'm in favour of legalised euthanasia and I'm not gay but I'm in favour of gay equality. The idea that you have to be a member of a particular community to have a view on it is a worrying form of moral relativism.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    Murder is about innocent life, not of those who are guilty. What a ridiculous comment. If you don't want to have to face the resposability of having a baby, then don't have sex.
    What the hell are you talking about? You dont just murder the innocent. Murder is murder regardless of whether the person is innocent or "guilty". Thats how the law sees it, thats how the vast majority of the public see it.

    And are you also implying that sex should only be reserved purely for reproduction?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Why do you feel bad? This whole issue centres around whether or not you think it's a baby. If you feel bad for having an abortion or considering it you clearly think it's a baby, and the majority of women who get abortions do feel this way given that we spend millions and millions of pounds rebuilding women who have made this disasterous decision. Further to this abortion doesn't save any lives either, it was allowed because people were getting illegal abortions and dieing. However the death rate of illegal abortions combined with their low number means less deaths than the low death rate with a higher number of legal abortions.
    For me, that's not what the issue centres around. The issue is whether my rights trump those of the foetus. And they do, in my opinion. I don't think it's clear-cut whether the foetus is a person with rights or not, because it's a gradual process. So I think at some stage- a late stage- the foetus does become a baby, but of course we can't pinpoint when. However this is all irrelevent imo, because I think the right to have autonomy over my body cancels out any rights of the foetus/baby.

    Of course I would feel bad though, for obvious reasons. I know a few women who have had abortions and it was a horrible experience and they were traumatised for years, but they don't regret it. It's not as easy as saying 'if you think an abortion's going to be difficult then don't get one', because all of the paths available are going to be really difficult.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)


    So her career is more important than the most wonderous thing on earth, the life of a new human child.

    If someone I slept with got pregnant, I would do the right thing, get married and raise the child.
    Well, yes. The woman had great potential, will never live her young live to the full and will be miserable for the next 60 years.

    That's impressive. That hasn't happened to any of the 8 young mothers I know.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)

    And they are clearly human, they have the DNA to prove it.
    Don, can I recommend some Peter Singer?

    The idea that it's DNA which make humans unique (Chimps share 98% of our DNA to give you a rough idea) rather than other human characteristics such as sentience, capacity for rational thought, a sense of self etc etc is fallacious.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Don't have sex with losers who don't love you then.
    Sex is more for pleasure now. And my 18 year mate has a baby now, from a relationship with a girl. I know 8 young mothers.

    Life isn't that black and white.
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    (Original post by emmie19)
    Well, yes. The woman had great potential, will never live her young live to the full and will be miserable for the next 60 years.

    That's impressive. That hasn't happened to any of the 8 young mothers I know.
    Is that what you think having a child is like? It's the most important thing in life.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    If abortion exists then men should have the right to say before it's born that they want nothing to do with it, financially or careing.
    So the man doesn't have a duty of care, financially at least, to his child? Therefore the mother must provide sole financial support to a child that isn't solely hers. Is this morally right, considering it is the child who ultimately suffers as a result?
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    Don, can I recommend some Peter Singer?

    The idea that it's DNA which make humans unique (Chimps share 98% of our DNA to give you a rough idea) rather than other human characteristics such as sentience, capacity for rational thought, a sense of self etc etc is fallacious.
    lol, at the suggestion of Peter Singer.

    He is a lunatic who thinks that sex with animals is justified. That's what happens when you try and rationalise morality, folks...
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    For me, that's not what the issue centres around. The issue is whether my rights trump those of the foetus. And they do, in my opinion. I don't think it's clear-cut whether the foetus is a person with rights or not, because it's a gradual process. So I think at some stage- a late stage- the foetus does become a baby, but of course we can't pinpoint when. However this is all irrelevent imo, because I think the right to have autonomy over my body cancels out any rights of the foetus/baby.

    Of course I would feel bad though, for obvious reasons. I know a few women who have had abortions and it was a horrible experience and they were traumatised for years, but they don't regret it. It's not as easy as saying 'if you think an abortion's going to be difficult then don't get one', because all of the paths available are going to be really difficult.
    Well the fact is you can't pinpoint a time when it transfers from being a foetus to an actual baby. Nothing changes between the time you are allowed to have an abortion and a time you're not. In fact the only things that change from week one are it's size, development and age. By this rationale a baby is less of a life than a toddler. A womans right to autonomy can be preserved by not getting pregnant. I am pro-choice, women have the choice of whether or not to participate in sexual relations and get pregnant. You had your rights, and you chose to put them on the line for a bit of fleeting pleasure, why should a baby pay the price? Your friends are traumatised but they are dead. They are traumatised because it isn't just a clump of cells, I don't know anyone who has had a tumor removed and felt bad about it.
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    You seem to have misunderstood my position, I haven't actually spoken about my views on abortion at all. My views are roughly concurrent with those of Judith Jarvis Thomson (who Don would hate because she's a feminist) insofar as I believe that there is a moral distinction between killing and allowing to die. I'd therefore be willing to allow abortion up until the point of viability, at which point the foetus could survive outside of the womb, because by this stage any attempt to terminate the foetus would be killing it, rather than allowing it to die by depriving it of the conditions necessary for its survival.

    And I hate the line "you're a man so you wouldn't understand". I don't take drugs but I'm in favour of drug legalisation, I'm not terminally ill but I'm in favour of legalised euthanasia and I'm not gay but I'm in favour of gay equality. The idea that you have to be a member of a particular community to have a view on it is a worrying form of moral relativism.
    You can walk away. A mother can't. It's easy for a man to think that.

    Yeah I know. So can babies be born blind, without much movement, and will die in 5 years time. I've seen them.

    Babies actually wanted can be born dead. By nature. My mum is a midwife. It would be hypocritical to view all life as a necessary, as nature itself fights us.

    It goes both ways.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    lol, at the suggestion of Peter Singer.

    He is a lunatic who thinks that sex with animals is justified. That's what happens when you try and rationalise morality, folks...
    I don't happen to agree with everything Peter Singer says (I'm a deontologist/virtue ethicist regarding moral positions rather than a consequentialist) but I think his insights into the notions of personhood are enlightening.

    Tbh, I'd rather get morality from rationality than the contradictory ramblings of primitive desert people, but that's just me.
 
 
 
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