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Abortion Watch

  • View Poll Results: What are you?
    Pro Choice in all circumstances
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    Pro Choice in most circumstances
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    Pro Life in all circumstances
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    Pro Life in most circumstances
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    20.28%

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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    No, I'm not saying that they should be forced to do so and it doesn't logically follow from my argument.

    What I'm saying is that human life is certainly one of the most important features of humanity (without human life there would be no human nature at all).

    To kill an innocent human being for the sake of avoiding mild discomfort brought on by your own action, is immoral.
    Yeah, now this is where our views diverge, you think that something has the right to life purely by virtue of having human DNA, when it has none of the recognisable characteristics of being human (and has less of a capacity for sentience that most living organisms.

    If a mother had a miscarriage, would it be acceptable to prosecute her for manslaughter? I mean, if abortion is murder because it kills an embryo, is a miscarriage manslaughter?
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    (Original post by Bubbles*de*Milo)
    Yeah, I hate 'child' killers too.


    Define Child:

    A child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of "child" generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority. ...
    I'd be really interested to know what you think the difference between a baby and an 8 month old fetus is...?
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    (Original post by Bubbles*de*Milo)
    Yeah, I hate 'child' killers too.


    Define Child:

    A child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of "child" generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority. ...
    WOOHOO!

    And the legal definition of murder: -

    "the unlawful killing of a reasonable person in being under the King's (or Queen's) peace, with malice aforethought, express or implied."

    Pro-lifers piss me off no end, they really do.
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    Aborting should be as easy as cutting hair or nails.

    Greatest evil hides within the weakest.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    So it should be ok for abortion upto 8 months 3 weeks? What exactly are you preserving by allowing women to have abortions? Getting pregnant isn't a life long disease, it's a temporary thing, a blip on a life line. Fair enough if you don't want keep the baby once it's born, but until that point you have lost the right not to have a big stomach for 9 months.

    If there is an option for preserving the made up right of a autonomy (whatever that means?), then the option that requires killing babies should be removed. Like I said, more women die with abortions legal than illegal. More women end up needing counselling for having babies killed than having the baby to full term. Because abortion exists women now have to choose between a career or a child, whereas if it didn't exist businesses would be forced to accomodate women who want to have children.
    So it should be ok for abortion upto 8 months 3 weeks? Err, no, when did I say that?

    until that point you have lost the right not to have a big stomach for 9 months. Says who?
    Getting pregnant isn't a lifelong disease, no. But it's still a parasite living off my body. It still changes my life enormously for a year. It's still my body. You might think that pregnancy is merely a minor inconvenience- well, tough, it's still my body and I can do what I like with it, and nobody can force me to let someone live off it for 9 months without my permission. I don't want to have my life disrupted for 9 months. If got pregnant now, I would have an abortion, because I don't want to ruin my relationship with my boyfriend, and put off university for a year, and have all the stigma attached with teenage pregnancy, and have my body change so much. It doesn't matter whether you think these are petty reasons or not, because it's my body, not yours, and for me it would be worth it to have an abortion to retain the right to have my body and my life entirely to myself.

    'Because abortion exists women now have to choose between a career or a child, whereas if it didn't exist businesses would be forced to accomodate women who want to have children' -I very much doubt that. More likely that women would be forced to give up a career to care for children.
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    (Original post by Bubbles*de*Milo)
    Yeah, I hate 'child' killers too.


    Define Child:

    A child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of "child" generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority. ...
    You're twisting words there, really. The innocence of a child still applies to a human foetus. Why should the unborn have less of a right to life than those who have been born?

    Is it ok for me to give a pregnant woman tablets to kill the unborn baby in her womb, but not to drown it the moment it pops out of the womb, one way or another?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I'd be really interested to know what you think the difference between a baby and an 8 month old fetus is...?
    I would never support abortion in the third trimester or at 8 months, however I support the current legislation in regards to abortion which does not allow for the abortion of 8 month old foetuses except for exceptional circumstances.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Well it should be a baby in your opinion, at least until you can give me some indication of what makes a baby different from a fetus in your eyes? Unless i'm religious this has no grounding? Don't make me laugh! We are biologically designed to reproduce by having sex, the reason it is pleasurable is to encourage us to procreate more, this is basic year 6 biology come on. It is unnatural to seperate the pleasure from the reproduction aspects, so when it goes wrong because you are biologically designed that way, don't be surprised and come begging for help.
    What makes an unconscious cluster of cells a baby then?

    What on earth do you mean 'biologically designed'? Who designed us? Nobody. We're not designed.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    Sorry, but pregnancy doesn't normally kill someone. Abortion does.
    Globally, a woman will die from giving birth every 60 seconds.
    And before medicine made huge advancements after the Victorian period, dying during pregnancy and childbirth was as common as the flu.
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    (Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
    Neither does blood donation, or donation of 1 kidney.
    :congrats:

    The difference is, if they are done against your will, they are considered theft. And the donation of one kidney will probably reduce your blood filtering ability somewhat.

    But it should save the life of another person, no?
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    Yeah, now this is where our views diverge, you think that something has the right to life purely by virtue of having human DNA, when it has none of the recognisable characteristics of being human (and has less of a capacity for sentience that most living organisms.

    If a mother had a miscarriage, would it be acceptable to prosecute her for manslaughter? I mean, if abortion is murder because it kills an embryo, is a miscarriage manslaughter?
    Because they are human. Many disabled humans don't have those characteristics, is it okay to kill them?

    A fetus is clearly a human like the rest of us. Tell me that doesn't look like a human:

    According to our law that is legal to kill.

    And on the issue of a miscarriage, of course it isn't manslaughter as it is unintentional.
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    (Original post by Don_Scott)
    And on the issue of a miscarriage, of course it isn't manslaughter as it is unintentional.
    Because manslaughter is not unintentional murder. Oh, wait...
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    Welcome Squad
    Just thought I'd raise a point (one which I've never actually made during other abortion debates)

    people do not have full rights over their bodies

    so anybody that says that they're pro-choice because a woman has rights over what happens to her body....well, nobody has full rights over their bodies, because if they did, illegal substances wouldn't be illegal.

    Why is heroin illegal?

    Because our bodies are not really ours to do with as we wish.

    I really don't want to debate abortion though, I've done it to death, I just thought I'd raise a point worth thinking about that just occurred to me.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    You're twisting words there, really. The innocence of a child still applies to a human foetus. Why should the unborn have less of a right to life than those who have been born?

    Is it ok for me to give a pregnant woman tablets to kill the unborn baby in her womb, but not to drown it the moment it pops out of the womb, one way or another?
    Ok, lets hypothetically imagine that abortion was banned. Do you know what would happen?

    There would be an advent of backstreet abortionists, where they pretty much rip the foetuses out of a woman with iron coat hangers, or squirt soap in her vagina or other nasty ****. Banning abortion won't stop people having abortion, but it will mean that they're often left infertile, or they might die.

    I wouldn't wish that on any woman, for what... the crime of having sex?! Ok, you could argue they shouldn't have had sex if they couldn't have a baby, but mistakes happen, and for the 'crime' of having sex, I don't think I should be subjected to iron coat hangers in my vagina quite frankly.

    You will never understand, because you are not a female.

    This woman was found in a hotel, after a botched abortion went wrong. If I remember right she had a few children at home as well, but couldn't cope with this last one.
    You want to go back to this? You're primitive.

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    (Original post by PinkMobilePhone)
    Just thought I'd raise a point (one which I've never actually made during other abortion debates)

    people do not have full rights over their bodies

    so anybody that says that they're pro-choice because a woman has rights over what happens to her body....well, nobody has full rights over their bodies, because if they did, illegal substances wouldn't be illegal.

    Why is heroin illegal?

    Because our bodies are not really ours to do with as we wish.

    I really don't want to debate abortion though, I've done it to death, I just thought I'd raise a point worth thinking about that just occurred to me.
    It's not illegal to use heroin, it's illegal to sell it/provide it etc. The usage is not prohibited.
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    I don't like it at all, but grudgingly accept that its legality is necessary.

    The alternative is backstreet abortions and far more teenage mums than we have already. I dont see really what it achieves anyway. I think anybody who supports the death penalty is an idiot.
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    (Original post by Bubbles*de*Milo)
    Ok, lets hypothetically imagine that abortion was banned. Do you know what would happen?

    There would be an advent of backstreet abortionists, where they pretty much rip the foetuses out of a woman with iron coat hangers, or squirt soap in her vagina or other nasty ****. Banning abortion won't stop people having abortion, but it will mean that they're often left infertile, or they might die.

    I wouldn't wish that on any woman, for what... the crime of having sex?! Ok, you could argue they shouldn't have had sex if they couldn't have a baby, but mistakes happen, and for the 'crime' of having sex, I don't think I should be subjected to iron coat hangers in my vagina quite frankly.

    You will never understand, because you are not a female.

    This woman was found in a hotel, after a botched abortion went wrong. If I remember right she had a few children at home as well, but couldn't cope with this last one.
    You want to go back to this? You're primitive.

    Let's try to stay away from the sensationalist crap, please.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    It would be if abortions didn't exist... Ultimately men actually have very little if no control over whether a woman gets pregnant, which is evidenced by the sheer number of men throughout history who have been tricked into getting a woman pregnant so she can control him and his life.

    How can you say men have very little control over whether women get pregnant or not:confused:

    Without men, women would be unable to get pregnant. Men know that by having sex with women there is a chance that pregnancy may result, in the same way that women know that if they have sex with men there is a chance that pregnancy will result.

    So back to your original point, perhaps people (male or female) shouldn't have sex with people who don't love them or who they cannot trust.
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    (Original post by D-Day)
    Let's try to stay away from the sensationalist crap, please.
    Ok.

    Banning abortion = backstreet abortions. Fact.

    Backstreet abortions = horrific mutilations, death, infertility, agonising pain. Fact.
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    (Original post by Bubbles*de*Milo)
    I would never support abortion in the third trimester or at 8 months, however I support the current legislation in regards to abortion which does not allow for the abortion of 8 month old foetuses except for exceptional circumstances.
    So what is the difference between 8 months and 20 weeks then?
 
 
 
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