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Which religious state would you most like to live under? Watch

  • View Poll Results: Which religious state would you most like to live under?
    Christian
    71
    36.04%
    Voodoo
    4
    2.03%
    Islamic
    23
    11.68%
    Jewish
    4
    2.03%
    Hindu
    5
    2.54%
    Rastafarian
    11
    5.58%
    Baha'i
    3
    1.52%
    Zoroastrian
    1
    0.51%
    Buddhist
    58
    29.44%
    Taoist
    2
    1.02%
    Wiccan
    15
    7.61%

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    Thank you for the reply, it was interesting. I read all of it, but I'll just quote the parts here that I need elaboration on.

    I like descriptions of heaven/hell (sorry to keep using Christian terms, but you know what I mean so it just saves time for me) - but I have to say the Muslim heaven could be a bit better. Other religions have a cooler idea of heaven. A river of honey? I like honey but that would just be sticky and gross. And servants in heaven seems wrong to me, people should all be equal when it comes to heaven, you'd think. In fact I get the impression that Islam is really into the idea of hierarchy (7 levels to both heaven and hell for example) ... just an observation. Sorry if you find that insulting to your religion; I'm insulting to ALL religions, it's not just yours.

    A big example of the Islamic tolerance of religion is alcohol & religious holidays. I remember reading a while ago - m'fraid I've possibly lost the link - that Non-Muslim majorities in an Islamic state could request a religious holiday (i.e. Sunday for Christians, Christmas, etc). Furthermore, even though Islam prohibits alcohol, Non-Muslims would be allowed to sell it, provided it was allowed in their religion. Non-Muslims could also punish according to their religion, rather than the laws prescribed in Islam.
    I like all the religious freedoms stuff.

    To be honest, don't really understand what you mean by enforced rules. What kind of rules?
    Well I don't know what rules are true Islam and what are a product of misinterpretations of the text. But here are some examples of Islamic rules:

    - No pig
    - No alcohol
    - Burkas

    So are these fundemental to the religious text? And now hopefully you realise the kind of thing I'm thinking about, feel free to discuss other examples: what laws/rules does Islam impose on people?

    Hope I answered your questions, and if not, sorry!
    You're doing fine, it's interesting - sorry for asking so many questions!
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    -snip-
    Hey. Just posting this to let you know that I'm not ignoring the response, just not going to be able to reply to it until tomorrow because I'm a lil too tired to give a decent enough response. So, hope you don't mind waiting!

    Although, before I go, I'll just comment on the servants thing: Muslims say that servants AREN'T people who've already existed and earned entrance to heaven. Rather, they are creations of God made to serve the pious

    Like Angels were created purely for the worship of God, so too are the servants in heaven created to serve the pious people in heaven

    Anyways, toodles for now!

    Edit Numero 2: Thanks, CandyFlipper
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    servants in heaven seems wrong to me, people should all be equal when it comes to heaven, you'd think. In fact I get the impression that Islam is really into the idea of hierarchy (7 levels to both heaven and hell for example)
    Im not sure what those who believe that heaven is literally as described believe but I think that the river of honey and servants are metaphors to describe absolute luxury. As for hierarchy, I think it is less about hierarchy and more about proportionate punishment/reward as surely it can not be fair to punish people with 'just' a bad personality to the same extent as mass murderers or to reward someone who simply didn't do anything particularly bad in life to the same extent as someone who sacrificed their own life to save another.

    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Well I don't know what rules are true Islam and what are a product of misinterpretations of the text. But here are some examples of Islamic rules:

    - No pig
    - No alcohol
    - Burkas

    So are these fundemental to the religious text? And now hopefully you realise the kind of thing I'm thinking about, feel free to discuss other examples: what laws/rules does Islam impose on people?
    Alcohol is forbidden as at is intoxicating, clouding the mind and impairing the senses, causing people to act in a way that is dishonourable ie, it may cause people to do things that they would not ordinarily do and may regret later so is forbidden to prevent this

    The purpose of the burka if to dress modestly so as not become vain or 'excite men' and distract them from more important activities (the burka is a very extreme way of doing this though, other items or dress or just as acceptable without severely limiting the ability of women to walk/carry items easily/see clearly)

    As for pork I'm not so sure.. possibly due to the fact that humans and pigs can catch many of the same diseases so pigs may be able to spread disease among humans or the fact that pigs consume a lot of food for their small size resulting in a loss of food that could be used to feed people?

    Edit: PS im sure ChemistryIsMyKyrptonite can expand a lot - I really don't know that many things lol
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    rasta for the reggae... among other things
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    Hindu, or possibly very laid back Christian, like Church of England.
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    Are we talking fundamentalist religious or just normal religious?

    I'd say Christian anyway.
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    Thanks for answering, MALIK HAMID

    Anyways, my turn :cute:
    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Thank you for the reply, it was interesting.

    You're doing fine, it's interesting - sorry for asking so many questions!
    Howdy! No worries, it's all good fun and I'm back, and...ready to go

    I like descriptions of heaven/hell (sorry to keep using Christian terms, but you know what I mean so it just saves time for me) - but I have to say the Muslim heaven could be a bit better. Other religions have a cooler idea of heaven. A river of honey? I like honey but that would just be sticky and gross. And servants in heaven seems wrong to me, people should all be equal when it comes to heaven, you'd think. In fact I get the impression that Islam is really into the idea of hierarchy (7 levels to both heaven and hell for example) ... just an observation. Sorry if you find that insulting to your religion; I'm insulting to ALL religions, it's not just yours.
    Haha, don't worry about it. Well, I don't think the Qu'ran actually specifies what types of rivers, I'm just going off what my parents told me when I was a kid. But, ja, who knows? Other-worldly honey might be unsticky but still have the same taste, etc :tongue: But, nah, it doesn't matter to me because like I said, I accept the non-literal version. Closeness to God, etc. But like I said in my other post about servants - they weren't other people on this earth. It's not like my less-religious friend will be pouring my drinks in the afterlife. The servants would be created by God purely to serve pious individuals. Like Angels were created to worship The servants probably wouldn't have conscious thought, they'd just...be there.

    Non-literal interpretation ftw though. Don't really have anything to comment on the hierachy - maybe it is, maybe it isn't! Seems logical, however, that people who were better in this life would have a better reward, and people who were evil-er in this life would have a harsher punishment.

    I like all the religious freedoms stuff.
    :top:

    Well I don't know what rules are true Islam and what are a product of misinterpretations of the text. But here are some examples of Islamic rules:

    - No pig
    - No alcohol
    - Burkas

    So are these fundemental to the religious text? And now hopefully you realise the kind of thing I'm thinking about, feel free to discuss other examples: what laws/rules does Islam impose on people?
    Hmm, one by one I guess.

    On the matter of pigs, they're forbidden because of the health issues associated with them. As MALIK HAMID said, a lot of viruses can transfer between pigs and humans. Not so much a deal in the modern world, due to hygiene standards and knowledge of this etc, but if you think back to the Prophet's [p] time, they didn't know this and had no way to ensure the viruses didn't transmit. So, the Qu'ran says in Surah 5 Verse 4:
    Forbidden to you for (food) are: dead meat, blood and the flesh of the swine and that which hath been invoked the name other than Allah
    Does that mean that pork is allowed in the modern world? Nope, because the Qu'ran says it's forbidden, rather than saying "it's forbidden until you find a way to make it safe"

    Because of that, no Muslim would *want* to work in the slaughter of pigs, unless it was necessary. Could non-muslims raise pigs, eat them, sell them, etc? I'd imagine so, considering that they're allowed their own religious holidays etc. Although, I have to admit that I don't really know and am just guesstimating

    Alcohol for Mulims, or Non-muslims? The Qu'ran says "No Compulsion in Religion", so I don't think the government could *force* somebody not to purchase it, though the government certainly wouldn't take part in it's production. Like I said in an earlier post, Non-Muslims would definitely be free to sell and purchase it. Don't know about Muslims, though.

    http://tasmia.wordpress.com/category...lim-relations/

    That's a blog someone's wrote about Non-Muslims under an Islamic state. Not the most reliable source, I know, but it's better than baseless claims! :tongue:

    Burqa's aren't Islamic. That's the face-veil, right? What *is* Islamic is the HIJAB - something which applies to both men and women. The Qu'ran enjoins on both sexes to wear modest clothing. So, no streaking I'm afraid Although the Qu'ran orders believers to cover certain parts of their bodies, it's again the whole "No compulsion in religion" thing, which pervades every aspect of Islam. I don't think it's right to force people to abide by it...

    Other laws...? Let's see. Premarital sex, adultery, etc? All these are sins in Islam, therefore crimes under an Islamic state. However, although it may seem like they are then impinging on your private lives, they're not. The Qu'ran commands FOUR witnesses to these sins. The only way that could happen is if the act was committed in public - therefore not a private matter anymore. So...yeah.

    Another law is the limited gender interaction. Islam says "no" to premarital relationships. How would that be applied? Depends on the ruler. Saudi Arabia go too extreme and don't even allow a male teacher to teach female students - it's done through a video loop (at least, according to a friend of mine who lived there for a year). That's too extreme. It's up to the individual to pass their test, not the government to take away their temptations And furthmore, on an invdividual level, if you see a couple holding hands/whatever in public, you don't know if they're married or unmarried. So, again, up to the individual rather than the government.

    Here's hoping that's answered you. If there's any other questions, feel free to PM me/post on this topic
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    (Original post by ChemistryIsMyKryptonite)
    But like I said in my other post about servants - they weren't other people on this earth. It's not like my less-religious friend will be pouring my drinks in the afterlife. The servants would be created by God purely to serve pious individuals. Like Angels were created to worship The servants probably wouldn't have conscious thought, they'd just...be there.
    Ok so the servants are only designed for that purpose, but that is still a horrible principle to me. I don't want anybody to serve me, I don't like to view other people as below me.

    On the matter of pigs, they're forbidden because of the health issues associated with them. As MALIK HAMID said, a lot of viruses can transfer between pigs and humans. Not so much a deal in the modern world, due to hygiene standards and knowledge of this etc, but if you think back to the Prophet's [p] time, they didn't know this and had no way to ensure the viruses didn't transmit. So, the Qu'ran says in Surah 5 Verse 4:
    Does that mean that pork is allowed in the modern world? Nope, because the Qu'ran says it's forbidden, rather than saying "it's forbidden until you find a way to make it safe"
    That's just stupid, to follow a rule that is no longer applicable - the Qu'ran needs to be updated. I'll be damned if I'm going to follow a rule that isn't relevant to society for the sake of it, and then be punished for it, if I ever have to confront Allah over this, I will, I'll tell him that he should keep with the times. :p:

    Alcohol for Mulims, or Non-muslims? The Qu'ran says "No Compulsion in Religion", so I don't think the government could *force* somebody not to purchase it, though the government certainly wouldn't take part in it's production. Like I said in an earlier post, Non-Muslims would definitely be free to sell and purchase it. Don't know about Muslims, though.
    Ok so here is another rule actually set by the Qu'ran, and another one I disagree with, yes alcohol clouds your mind - but why can't they just say that adultery etc are sins, and if you drink alcohol and commit adultery you have still sinned and it does not excuse you; but let it be a risk that people can choose to take? I don't see why it is necessary to restrict drinking in moderation.

    How does the Qu'ran feel about smoking marijuana? That doesn't cloud the mind, and nor does taking mdma.

    Burqa's aren't Islamic. That's the face-veil, right? What *is* Islamic is the HIJAB - something which applies to both men and women.
    How do the leaders in places like Saudi Arabia justify the use of the Burqa?

    Other laws...? Let's see. Premarital sex, adultery, etc? All these are sins in Islam, therefore crimes under an Islamic state. However, although it may seem like they are then impinging on your private lives, they're not. The Qu'ran commands FOUR witnesses to these sins. The only way that could happen is if the act was committed in public - therefore not a private matter anymore. So...yeah.
    Does it really say people, because I heard it is four MEN.

    I have to admit, the whole witness thing seems ridicilous to me; something is a sin or it isn't, why does it matter how many people happen to be around?

    Overall even the good and honest readings of the Qu'ran seem too excessive and based on rules for my liking, but then again, there is no obligation for people to be Islamic, so I guess that's alright.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Ok so the servants are only designed for that purpose, but that is still a horrible principle to me. I don't want anybody to serve me, I don't like to view other people as below me.



    That's just stupid, to follow a rule that is no longer applicable - the Qu'ran needs to be updated. I'll be damned if I'm going to follow a rule that isn't relevant to society for the sake of it, and then be punished for it, if I ever have to confront Allah over this, I will, I'll tell him that he should keep with the times. :p:



    Ok so here is another rule actually set by the Qu'ran, and another one I disagree with, yes alcohol clouds your mind - but why can't they just say that adultery etc are sins, and if you drink alcohol and commit adultery you have still sinned and it does not excuse you; but let it be a risk that people can choose to take? I don't see why it is necessary to restrict drinking in moderation.

    How does the Qu'ran feel about smoking marijuana? That doesn't cloud the mind, and nor does taking mdma.



    How do the leaders in places like Saudi Arabia justify the use of the Burqa?



    Does it really say people, because I heard it is four MEN.

    I have to admit, the whole witness thing seems ridicilous to me; something is a sin or it isn't, why does it matter how many people happen to be around?

    Overall even the good and honest readings of the Qu'ran seem too excessive and based on rules for my liking, but then again, there is no obligation for people to be Islamic, so I guess that's alright.
    Nor do I like to view others as beneath myself. That, coupled with a couple of other reasons, is why I accept the non-literal interpretation - as I'm sure you know by now :tongue: Way I see it, as I've said, theses verses merely show how..."high", royal almost, it is to be in God's presence. You don't have to accept it literally. Let's say for a moment it *is* litreal. Doesn't really matter - God knows what makes you happy, so will give it to you. For all we know, the things described in the verses may have been what the Arabs of Muhammad's [as] time wanted.

    Besides, to view someone as beneath you means you have a high sense of pride (and, probably, arrogance). Both are condemned in Islam, whilst humility is highly revered.

    On pigs...Well, you could aruge that, but obviously Muslims would disagree. But at the same time, I believe - and there probably is - that there's another reason it's been banned.

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/hh/pork.html

    There's a link with some stuff about pork/pigs/'tever. Tbh, the issue of pigs being forbidden has never really bothered me - you can't miss what you've never had, and I much prefer good grilled beef :tongue:

    The reason alcohol is forbidden isn't due to clouding your judgement. The Qu'ran says, with regard to alcohol, that "there is a little good in it, and a little bad, but the bad outweighs the good". Good = social lubricant & good time. Bad = Health problems & societal problems (binge drinking, premarital/extramarital sex, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, etc). Obviously the bad stuff doesn't happen all the time, but the Quran looks at the bigger picture. Going off the idea that alcohol is forbidden for health reasons, the same is applied to marijuana and mdma. Both damage your health, no?

    They justify it because the stuff set in the Qu'ran is generally percieved to be the minimum. It's not haram, per se, to cover up more than is required. Saudi Arabian culture may have a higher view of modesty and thus advocate the burqa.

    They need the witnesses to prove the crime was committed, as Islam assigns a punishment for it. The witnesses aren't for the sin itself, because God and the sinner obviously know. The requirement for witnesses & listing the punishment may be to show the severity of the sin.

    "No Compulsion in Religion"
 
 
 
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