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Fifth of the European Union will be muslim by 2050 watch

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    (Original post by indigoblue)
    Its crap. Britain is meant to British and, no offense to Muslims, I don't want to live in a muslim country. I just have a funny feeling we're betraying our nation. All those people who died in the first world war...
    Yeah, because our army in WW1 was made up only of British people.



    :sigh:
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    (Original post by indigoblue)
    Because it is "us and them", thats just the way it is, go out on the streets and see.

    My point is I don't want to be a muslim country, I regard technological advance as a good thing, but massive muslim incomers as not
    Two points:

    1) First of all, it's a FORECAST - doesn't mean it's actually going to happen.
    2) Even if it did, since when did a 20% Muslim population make a "Muslim country"?
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    (Original post by Riquelminho)
    Two points:

    1) First of all, it's a FORECAST - doesn't mean it's actually going to happen.
    2) Even if it did, since when did a 20% Muslim population make a "Muslim country"?
    Would 50% Muslim be a bad thing then?

    I thought numbers didn't worry you
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    (Original post by The Mute)
    Oh for God's sake, WHO GIVES A FLYING **** WHAT RELIGION YOU ARE?

    This is nothing more than thinly veiled racism.
    Rubbish, religion and race are two different things. And religion is very important, which secular Europe has forgotten because its been several centuries since the Enlightenment and the end of the religious wars which bathed Europe in bloodshed. It only takes a small minority of Muslim youth to be radicalised to pose a severe threat to Western states. Look at the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. If all Muslims in Europe were to embrace the views of Tariq Ramadan there would be absolutely no problem with these demographic trends, but as of the moment that is fanciful - it isn't happening and there is even less likelihood of it happening as the demographic situation continues to shift so profoundly.

    According to a Guardian survey of British Muslims, on 30 November 2004, 61% want British courts to incorporate sharia principles in courts, 58% believe that anyone who insults Islam should face criminal prosecution, and 88% want schools and workplaces to change the normal working day to accommodate Muslim prayer times. I shouldn't need to remind anyone of the Guardian's political pedigree. There is a war going on for the soul of Islam between the those like Tariq Ramadan and the many Muslims influenced by his grandfather's Muslim Brotherhood and Saudi-financed Wahhabism, and amongst young Muslim men it is not going the way we would wish. The Muslim population is currently around 2,422,000 (Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5621482.ece ) and if only 10% of British Muslims were susceptible to radical and political Islam that would make 242,200 radicals. Lets say at some point in the future Britain had 20,000,000 Muslims of a total population of 80,000,000 people (neither of which is a crazy prediction but it isn't rooted in any demographic modeling, I just plucked the numbers out of the air), if 10% of that population was radicalised we would be talking about 2 million Muslims.

    As well as potential terrorist attacks that could mean that non-Muslim women felt unsafe walking outside in many areas without a headscarf, as is already the case in several suburbs in French cities. The police are as of the moment reluctant to intervene to protect British Muslim girls from being forced to leave school, being imprisoned in the house, being forced into marriages against their will and sometimes being sent to Pakistan to live out the rest of their life imprisoned in a forced marriage. Domestic violence and marital rape are also significantly higher in some parts of the British Muslim community. The state sometimes intervenes in these cases, but not often enough, it tends to only get involved by the time it reaches the stage of an 'honour' killing. In effect the state discriminates against British Muslim girls by failing to protect them in circumstances where it would definitely seek to protect a Christian girl. This kind of unequal treatment where minority communities are treated as a whole and individuals, especially girls not protected as is their right as individual citizens of the country, would be bound to increase with a substantially larger Muslim population. There would also be more acts of individual violence against apostates, Jews and homosexuals.

    None of this is rooted in race, there are white converts to radical Islam, and as with many converts they tend to be the most zealous. It is rooted in interpretations of Islam and in backward cultural practices to often justified in the name of Islam. Anyone who thinks this demographic process would not have profound implications for society is deluding themselves.
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    (Original post by pendragon)
    Rubbish, religion and race are two different things. And religion is very important, which secular Europe has forgotten because its been several centuries since the Enlightenment and the end of the religious wars which bathed Europe in bloodshed. It only takes a small minority of Muslim youth to be radicalised to pose a severe threat to Western states. Look at the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. If all Muslims in Europe were to embrace the views of Tariq Ramadan there would be absolutely no problem with these demographic trends, but as of the moment that is fanciful - it isn't happening and there is even less likelihood of it happening as the demographic situation continues to shift so profoundly.

    According to a Guardian survey of British Muslims, on 30 November 2004, 61% want British courts to incorporate sharia principles in courts, 58% believe that anyone who insults Islam should face criminal prosecution, and 88% want schools and workplaces to change the normal working day to accommodate Muslim prayer times. I shouldn't need to remind anyone of the Guardian's political pedigree. There is a war going on for the soul of Islam between the those like Tariq Ramadan and the many Muslims influenced by his grandfather's Muslim Brotherhood and Saudi-financed Wahhabism, and amongst young Muslim men it is not going the way we would wish. The Muslim population is currently around 2,422,000 (Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5621482.ece ) and if only 10% of British Muslims were susceptible to radical and political Islam that would make 242,200 radicals. Lets say at some point in the future Britain had 20,000,000 Muslims of a total population of 80,000,000 people (neither of which is a crazy prediction but it isn't rooted in any demographic modeling, I just plucked the numbers out of the air), if 10% of that population was radicalised we would be talking about 2 million Muslims.

    As well as potential terrorist attacks that could mean that non-Muslim women felt unsafe walking outside in many areas without a headscarf, as is already the case in several suburbs in French cities. The police are as of the moment reluctant to intervene to protect British Muslim girls from being forced to leave school, being imprisoned in the house, being forced into marriages against their will and sometimes being sent to Pakistan to live out the rest of their life imprisoned in a forced marriage. Domestic violence and marital rape are also significantly higher in some parts of the British Muslim community. The state sometimes intervenes in these cases, but not often enough, it tends to only get involved by the time it reaches the stage of an 'honour' killing. In effect the state discriminates against British Muslim girls by failing to protect them in circumstances where it would definitely seek to protect a Christian girl. This kind of unequal treatment were minority communities are treated as a whole and individuals, especially girls not protected as is their right as individual citizens of the country, would be bound to increase with a substantially larger Muslim population. There would also be more acts of individual violence against apostates, Jews and homosexuals.

    None of this is rooted in race, there are white converts to radical Islam, and as with many converts they tend to be the most zealous. It is rooted in interpretations of Islam and in backward cultural practices to often justified in the name of Islam. Anyone who thinks this demographic process would not have profound implications for society is deluding themselves.
    Yeah people are always willing the turn the other cheek, as long as the problem feels distant enough from them
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    Who knows what lunatics such demographic proportions will offer a base for.
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    (Original post by pendragon)
    Rubbish, religion and race are two different things. And religion is very important, which secular Europe has forgotten because its been several centuries since the Enlightenment and the end of the religious wars which bathed Europe in bloodshed. It only takes a small minority of Muslim youth to be radicalised to pose a severe threat to Western states. Look at the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. If all Muslims in Europe were to embrace the views of Tariq Ramadan there would be absolutely no problem with these demographic trends, but as of the moment that is fanciful - it isn't happening and there is even less likelihood of it happening as the demographic situation continues to shift so profoundly.

    According to a Guardian survey of British Muslims, on 30 November 2004, 61% want British courts to incorporate sharia principles in courts, 58% believe that anyone who insults Islam should face criminal prosecution, and 88% want schools and workplaces to change the normal working day to accommodate Muslim prayer times. I shouldn't need to remind anyone of the Guardian's political pedigree. There is a war going on for the soul of Islam between the those like Tariq Ramadan and the many Muslims influenced by his grandfather's Muslim Brotherhood and Saudi-financed Wahhabism, and amongst young Muslim men it is not going the way we would wish. The Muslim population is currently around 2,422,000 (Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5621482.ece ) and if only 10% of British Muslims were susceptible to radical and political Islam that would make 242,200 radicals. Lets say at some point in the future Britain had 20,000,000 Muslims of a total population of 80,000,000 people (neither of which is a crazy prediction but it isn't rooted in any demographic modeling, I just plucked the numbers out of the air), if 10% of that population was radicalised we would be talking about 2 million Muslims.

    As well as potential terrorist attacks that could mean that non-Muslim women felt unsafe walking outside in many areas without a headscarf, as is already the case in several suburbs in French cities. The police are as of the moment reluctant to intervene to protect British Muslim girls from being forced to leave school, being imprisoned in the house, being forced into marriages against their will and sometimes being sent to Pakistan to live out the rest of their life imprisoned in a forced marriage. Domestic violence and marital rape are also significantly higher in some parts of the British Muslim community. The state sometimes intervenes in these cases, but not often enough, it tends to only get involved by the time it reaches the stage of an 'honour' killing. In effect the state discriminates against British Muslim girls by failing to protect them in circumstances where it would definitely seek to protect a Christian girl. This kind of unequal treatment were minority communities are treated as a whole and individuals, especially girls not protected as is their right as individual citizens of the country, would be bound to increase with a substantially larger Muslim population. There would also be more acts of individual violence against apostates, Jews and homosexuals.

    None of this is rooted in race, there are white converts to radical Islam, and as with many converts they tend to be the most zealous. It is rooted in interpretations of Islam and in backward cultural practices to often justified in the name of Islam. Anyone who thinks this demographic process would not have profound implications for society is deluding themselves.
    That was a considerably long post considering you only quoted two sentences.
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    (Original post by indigoblue)
    Yes I get it.

    Some bad things happen with time, some good things happen with time.
    And some neutral things happen with time. So Europe becomes 20% Muslim. The city I live in is already somewhere approaching that (well, 11% last census but that was a while ago), and I am unconcerned.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    And some neutral things happen with time.
    A 20% increase in the british muslim population will be a neutral change?
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    (Original post by indigoblue)
    A 20% increase in the british muslim population will be a neutral change?
    A 20% increase in the British Muslim population != 20% of Europe being Muslim by 2050. Let's be precise with our claims before we talk about them.

    And my edit deals with why I am largely unconcerned.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    If you'd said fifty years ago that we would have portable 3-inch computers that played all the music you own into your ears using wires wherever you want all day people would have laughed at you.

    If you'd said fifty years ago that the USSR would not exist in fifty years' time people would have laughed at you.

    etc.
    My grandfather did say the USSR wouldn't exist, but what you aren't getting is that some change is good and some change is bad. The fall of the Soviet Union was good don't you think? Don't be so apathetic, think about the consequences of each change and decide whether you think it will be a good thing for the position of women in society who don't want to cover their hair with a headscarf or not, whether it will be a good thing for openly gay men or not. Change is not neutral. Yes things are always changing, but they are either changing in your favour or changing against you.
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    Oh gosh!! Shock HORROR!! OMG, what should I do???
    I should move out immediately!!!! :eek3:

    :facepalm:

    Does it actually matter??
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    Oh damn - guess I'm gonna have to move continents now.
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    (Original post by Faith01)
    Does it actually matter??
    Some would say yes, some would say no. I'm leaning on the side of YES
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    (Original post by pendragon)
    My grandfather did say the USSR wouldn't exist, but what you aren't getting is that some change is good and some change is bad. The fall of the Soviet Union was good don't you think? Don't be so apathetic, think about the consequences of each change and decide whether you think it will be a good thing for the position of women in society who don't want to cover their hair with a headscarf or not, whether it will be a good thing for openly gay men or not. Change is not neutral. Yes things are always changing, but they are either changing in your favour or changing against you.
    I am not apathetic, Jesus Christ. I just don't see this change as necessarily a bad thing. If Muslims do start seriously clamouring for Shariah law then I will oppose it, but I'm not going to prevent free movement between borders just because that free movement results in demographic change. Perhaps there will be more religious nuts wanting their nutty religion to be imposed on everyone. Okay, but what exactly do you suggest? Ban Muslim immigration? Limit the number of children Muslims can have? Eh, no thanks.

    Basically I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.
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    (Original post by Riquelminho)
    Two points:

    1) First of all, it's a FORECAST - doesn't mean it's actually going to happen.
    2) Even if it did, since when did a 20% Muslim population make a "Muslim country"?
    It doesn't matter how accurate it is a forecast, its the trend that's important. And the trend is that western people are not having babies. They are having less than 2.11 per couple which is the replacement rate to maintain a population. If a couple has only one child, the next generation has halved, and if their child has one child it has quartered in two generations. If western people are declining in demographic terms, while Muslims have above replacement level fertility - say an average of 2.5 children per couple - then the demographic trends are undeniable and unlikely to be reversible.

    You can then add in conversion, which is largely one way because apostasy is prohibited in Islam and punishable by death in many Muslim countries, so its a brave act for a Muslim even in a western country.
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    To be frank, I'd find halting - or at least substantially limiting - Islamic immigration far more desirable than seeing this prophesy fulfilled. Not harbouring the world's weight on our shoulders, and turning people down at the gate is hardly a travesty when considering the alternative. Why, would stopping unlimited movement between borders - which is an utterly atrocious, uneconomical, dangerous proposition anyway - be more abhorrent than the arson of Christian churches, the legalisation of public floggings, a banning of alcohol, stonings for homosexuals and adulterers, even potential genocide of non-Muslims? After all, you can have all the decent Muslims you want, but it only takes a few nutters, and the rest will live in ignorance.
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    shock horror, 50% will be muslim, so what, who says they will all be shariah law extremests! Just like not all white europeans are christian not all muslims follow islam stricly! Plus the populations will mix,people are becoming more agnostic and people will convert to islam aswell making more white people muslim! If we stop europe becoming muslim, i guess its only fair to do the same around the world where we imposed our views. How about we take back he settlers in the USA, Australia and south Africa where we FORCEFULY imposed our religion! I dont know about you but when was the last time a muslim knocked on your door to convert you or a muslim made you second class citizen because you were not muslim!

    oh and dont forget, the main places where these muslim immigrants are coming from are countries like Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan,places we have had military activity in! When those problems are solved, less immigrants will come! The main rate of immigration is primarily down to these countries and will eventually stop!
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    I am not apathetic, Jesus Christ. I just don't see this change as necessarily a bad thing. If Muslims do start seriously clamouring for Shariah law then I will oppose it, but I'm not going to prevent free movement between borders just because that free movement results in demographic change. Perhaps there will be more religious nuts wanting their nutty religion to be imposed on everyone. Okay, but what exactly do you suggest? Ban Muslim immigration? Limit the number of children Muslims can have? Eh, no thanks.
    Well that Guardian poll indicates they already want sharia, our own Archbishop supported the idea and it was only the resulting tabloid clamour that saw off that idea for the time being.

    The solution is, restricting immigration for everyone, working to integrate British Muslims, promoting the kind of Islam preached by Tariq Ramadan which embraces secular democracy, and opposing political Islam - enforcing the existing law of the country when a British Muslim girl is taken out of school or forced into a marriage, or a radical preacher or protester makes a statement inciting violence; banning the use of Saudi and other foreign money to support Wahhabism and Muslim Brotherhood ideas in the UK; reiterate that there will be only one legal system in this country that treats every individual citizen equally.

    As a private matter, and not state policy, apathetic western girls should think about having more children - because if you believe in even the most basic freedoms afforded to women by feminism and secular western democracy then you ought to realise you are being out bred by people with profoundly different ideas who will do more to shape the nature of this country and the world than you or your possible offspring.

    Apathy is suicide, and you should know that the freedoms which you enjoy and take for granted do not belong to you, they are hard won by the blood and sacrifice of previous generations of westerners, you are simply a custodian of that freedom, and you ought to do everything you can to keep it intact and pass it on to the next generation for the betterment of mankind.
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    (Original post by steed999)
    shock horror, 50% will be muslim, so what, who says they will all be shariah law extremests! Just like not all white europeans are christian not all muslims follow islam stricly! Plus the populations will mix,people are becoming more agnostic and people will convert to islam aswell making more white people muslim! If we stop europe becoming muslim, i guess its only fair to do the same around the world where we imposed our views. How about we take back he settlers in the USA, Australia and south Africa where we FORCEFULY imposed our religion! I dont know about you but when was the last time a muslim knocked on your door to convert you or a muslim made you second class citizen because you were not muslim!

    oh and dont forget, the main places where these muslim immigrants are coming from are countries like Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan,places we have had military activity in! When those problems are solved, less immigrants will come! The main rate of immigration is primarily down to these countries and will eventually stop!
    Many Muslim girls are second class citizens, not in the sense that you mean, but because the state fails to protect them from being taken out of school and forced into marriages against their will, from household imprisonment, domestic violence and marital rape, in cases were a western girl would be protected by the laws of the country.

    It only takes a radical minority of growing demographic to profoundly challenge our way of life, and through threat of violence instill silence in their opponents.

    So according to you because of imperialism, we deserve to be destroyed as a civilisation, and there are no worthwhile values that have come out of our nations that ought to be defended? Freedom of expression? Secular democracy? The rights of the individual? Freedom to apostate from religion and choose one's belief system? Women's position in our societies?

    The fact that you are so critical of your own civilisation and its historical failings is itself a profoundly western activity and freedom. When was the last time you heard the Chinese saying how awful it was that they had dominated non-Han minorities and imposed their rule on Tibet? When was the last time you heard people in Islamic societies say, wasn't it terrible and aggressive how we conquered the formerly Christian and Zoroastrian lands of the Persian and Roman Empires (North Africa, the Middle East, Persia and Central Asia)? Wasn't it terrible that we conquered much of Spain and the Balkans? Wasn't it terrible how we sacked Constantinople, the centre of the Orthadox Christian world? Wasn't it terrible how our armies tried to carry the Qu'ran into Southern France and Italy? Has there ever been a non-western civilisation as able and willing to criticise itself as the west is? Isn't that self criticism also a facet of our free thinking and free speaking democratic culture that ought to be protected?
 
 
 
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