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    Interesting thoughts at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...xtremism-media and the role of the media following both sides.
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    (Original post by Prince Rhyus)
    Interesting thoughts at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...xtremism-media and the role of the media following both sides.
    An interesting article, worth the effort.

    This bit was interesting (among others):

    Remember, only eight people were involved in the anti-soldiers march in a town with more than 25,000 Muslims, and yet they got front-page coverage.
    Much of the hysteria here at TSR seems to be based on media representations of events and I have to admit that the way it came across on TV I wouldn't have known that only eight people were holding up those provocative banners at that anti-soldier demo, nor that the town was one of over 25,000 Muslims which puts it in perspective even more.

    I also remember the time when the NF held demos which were supposed to be 'anti crime' or 'anti mugging' and which was a cover for racism and neo-Nazi chanting. It looks like this 'English Defence League' are more of the same, albeit in the 21st century. The good news is that people aren't standing for it.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    I also remember the time when the NF held demos which were supposed to be 'anti crime' or 'anti mugging' and which was a cover for racism and neo-Nazi chanting. It looks like this 'English Defence League' are more of the same, albeit in the 21st century. The good news is that people aren't standing for it.
    The way UAF claim to be fighting for better things when in reality are no better than those they 'protest' against?
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)
    The way UAF claim to be fighting for better things when in reality are no better than those they 'protest' against?
    No. Because anti-fascists are against somebody because of their actions and political choices. The BNP are against people because of the colour of their skin or their origins...
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    (Original post by Alasdair)
    No. Because anti-fascists are against somebody because of their actions and political choices. The BNP are against people because of the colour of their skin or their origins...
    You mean in the same way positive discrimination works against some people because of their colour or their origin?

    Both groups use violence to carry across their message. Therefore they are both equally worthless, supporting them only supports the use of violence to influence democracy.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)
    The way UAF claim to be fighting for better things when in reality are no better than those they 'protest' against?
    In so far as UAF seek to oppose fascism, racism and far-right activities they're doing some good as far as I'm concerned. I don't know that their tactics are always well thought out but I commend anyone who is prepared to get onto the street and contest neo-Nazism etc. I'd be pretty happy knowing that my neighbours were UAF supporters, I'd be pretty unhappy knowing that they were NF, BNP or 'English Defence League' supporters.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)
    You mean in the same way positive discrimination works against some people because of their colour or their origin?
    What's that got to do with the UAF?

    Both groups use violence to carry across their message. Therefore they are both equally worthless, supporting them only supports the use of violence to influence democracy.
    Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Sitting around wringing our hands while the BNP pollute our streets isn't really an option unless you're a bourgeois 'liberal', more concerned with some theoretical freedom of speech than with protecting society from fascists.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    In so far as UAF seek to oppose fascism, racism and far-right activities they're doing some good as far as I'm concerned. I don't know that their tactics are always well thought out but I commend anyone who is prepared to get onto the street and contest neo-Nazism etc. I'd be pretty happy knowing that my neighbours were UAF supporters, I'd be pretty unhappy knowing that they were NF, BNP or 'English Defence League' supporters.
    This. I'm not sure their tactics are always the best idea in terms of getting things done (primarily because people may take pity on Nick Griffin), but I have no moral qualms about it.
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    (Original post by Alasdair)
    What's that got to do with the UAF?

    You hate the BNP for discriminating on race and ethnic origin. Positive discrimination is just that from the left.


    Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Sitting around wringing our hands while the BNP pollute our streets isn't really an option unless you're a bourgeois 'liberal', more concerned with some theoretical freedom of speech than with protecting society from fascists.
    "Free speech as long as I agree"?

    (Original post by Oswy)
    In so far as UAF seek to oppose fascism, racism and far-right activities they're doing some good as far as I'm concerned. I don't know that their tactics are always well thought out but I commend anyone who is prepared to get onto the street and contest neo-Nazism etc. I'd be pretty happy knowing that my neighbours were UAF supporters, I'd be pretty unhappy knowing that they were NF, BNP or 'English Defence League' supporters.
    So basically you're quite happy to see violence against political groups you disagree with? As if your views are more important than the others, and it is your responsibility to ensure they are forced to your way of thinking?
    While I agree with you in principle that the EDL and like are hateful, I do not think that that justifies violence against them soley because you disagree.

    So what, say in the next election the BNP were to gain seats in parliament, you would turn to violence because democracy didn't produce the result you wanted? You start down that route and you will fast find yourself in a situation Russia is all too familiar with.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)

    So basically you're quite happy to see violence against political groups you disagree with? As if your views are more important than the others, and it is your responsibility to ensure they are forced to your way of thinking?
    While I agree with you in principle that the EDL and like are hateful, I do not think that that justifies violence against them soley because you disagree.

    So what, say in the next election the BNP were to gain seats in parliament, you would turn to violence because democracy didn't produce the result you wanted? You start down that route and you will fast find yourself in a situation Russia is all too familiar with.
    I think open physical intimidation (like that in Birmingham) can legitimately be met with a likewise physical show of solidarity. If a community is being physically attacked and the police seem unwilling or unable to step in then I see it as entirely legitimate to show the far-right that they are not the only ones who know how to throw a punch. I have been through a phase of rejecting all violent response to the far-right but I'm now less concrete on that, I think in the appropriate circumstances, and given the nature of the threat these people represent to local communities, hand-wringing, as Alasdair puts it, isn't quite enough. If democracy puts fascists (crypto or otherwise) in power then democracy is failing and standing by to let that happen would mean prison or execution for leftists like me, along with every other group Griffin and his like regard as an 'enemy within'.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)

    So basically you're quite happy to see violence against political groups you disagree with? As if your views are more important than the others, and it is your responsibility to ensure they are forced to your way of thinking?
    While I agree with you in principle that the EDL and like are hateful, I do not think that that justifies violence against them soley because you disagree.

    So what, say in the next election the BNP were to gain seats in parliament, you would turn to violence because democracy didn't produce the result you wanted? You start down that route and you will fast find yourself in a situation Russia is all too familiar with.


    That occured 10 mins from where I live during term time, I think it's one of the proudest moments of London's history that showed working class people of all backgrounds and ethnicities standing up to fascism.

    If the far right want to physically intimidate a populace and flex their proverbial muscles, people ought to have a right to protest against them in an equal and proportionate way.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    I think open physical intimidation (like that in Birmingham) can legitimately be met with a likewise physical show of solidarity. If a community is being physically attacked and the police seem unwilling or unable to step in then I see it as entirely legitimate to show the far-right that they are not the only ones who know how to throw a punch. I have been through a phase of rejecting all violent response to the far-right but I'm now less concrete on that, I think in the appropriate circumstances, and given the nature of the threat these people represent to local communities, hand-wringing, as Alasdair puts it, isn't quite enough. If democracy puts fascists (crypto or otherwise) in power then democracy is failing and standing by to let that happen would mean prison or execution for leftists like me, along with every other group Griffin and his like regard as an 'enemy within'.
    In normal circumstances the Police would be able to deal with them, but hey, Labour have seen to it that the Police can not do anything for fear of hurting the prisoners feelings.

    It's a liberal government which has made it viable for extremist groups from both the left (UAF) and right (BNP) to parade openly.

    But when you are resorting to violence because you don't like the outcome of democracy and claiming it has failed because it didn't work the way you wanted it to...you know where it's heading.

    (Original post by Democracy)


    That occured 10 mins from where I live during term time, I think it's one of the proudest moments of London's history that showed working class people of all backgrounds and ethnicities standing up to fascism.

    If the far right want to physically intimidate a populace and flex their proverbial muscles, people ought to have a right to protest against them in an equal and proportionate way.
    It shows a failure of government to prevent extremist groups, The UAF showed that were incapable of behaving in a better manner than the EDL and instantly surrendered the moral high ground they had. They are nothing more than a extremist left group deserving of no more respect than the EDL or its ilk.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)
    In normal circumstances the Police would be able to deal with them, but hey, Labour have seen to it that the Police can not do anything for fear of hurting the prisoners feelings.

    It's a liberal government which has made it viable for extremist groups from both the left (UAF) and right (BNP) to parade openly.

    But when you are resorting to violence because you don't like the outcome of democracy and claiming it has failed because it didn't work the way you wanted it to...you know where it's heading.
    Well, you've got to make your own mind up on that. I'm with the left, I oppose fascism and racism, I have my priorities and I don't believe democracy is saved by hand-wringing. I also don't think of the UAF as extremist, indeed I agree with their values and aims, I occasionally disagree with their methods. As history students will tell you, the attempt to rely upon the mechanisms of democracy in the face of a rise in Nazism didn't save Germany. In hindsight we can see that democracy is fragile, vulnerable to violence and intimidation and asking fascists to 'please stop that at once' isn't going to cut it.

    Whether we like it or not sometimes real politics involves action on the streets and the stakes might be high, you can pick a side or stand by and watch events play out, that's up to you.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Well, you've got to make your own mind up on that. I'm with the left, I oppose fascism and racism, I have my priorities and I don't believe democracy is saved by hand-wringing. I also don't think of the UAF as extremist, indeed I agree with their values and aims, I occasionally disagree with their methods. As history students will tell you, the attempt to rely upon the mechanisms of democracy in the face of a rise in Nazism didn't save Germany. In hindsight we can see that democracy is fragile, vulnerable to violence and intimidation and asking fascists to 'please stop that at once' isn't going to cut it.

    Whether we like it or not sometimes real politics involves action on the streets and the stakes might be high, you can pick a side or stand by and watch events play out, that's up to you.
    Nice to see you place such value on democracy.
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    The problem with all this talk of opposing "racism" and "fascism", is that those things aren't the only things opposed by these groups.

    Not only is "fascism" essentially dead as a political ideology but anyone who opposes immigration or multiculturism or who stands up for traditional morality, is branded a "fascist" or a "racist" and is not allowed to speak without being shouted down by groups like the UAF.

    I also think that the far-left needs to be opposed just as much as the far-right, perhaps even more considering what they have done.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)
    Nice to see you place such value on democracy.
    Life is short and you're a long time dead.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Life is short and you're a long time dead.
    You say that as if it justifies anything.
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    (Original post by ResidentNutter)
    You say that as if it justifies anything.
    Now you're just projecting.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Now you're just projecting.
    I think this discussion has died now don't you?
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    Wiki Support Team
    Keep on topic please.
 
 
 
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