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Positive Discrimination against top state schools.
Tony Blair has been accused of using "under-the-counter devices" to hit school targets, after a confidential list was produced by Kings College London suggesting that positive discrimination is being used against students from top state schools, in favour of those from worse state schools.
"The document reveals that it is not only independent schools that have fallen victim to government-imposed targets to broaden the social mix of undergraduates"
"It shows, for example, that a candidate from John Roan school, a comprehensive in Blackheath, south London, could win a place with a C grade and two Ds at A-level when the normal offer was three Bs. By contrast, students from Pate’s, a grammar school in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, would receive no such allowance".
"Experts believe the need to meet government quotas means there is a risk that some universities may now be rejecting some of the best-qualified candidates"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1632469_2,00.html
What do you think of this form of positive discrimination?
"The document reveals that it is not only independent schools that have fallen victim to government-imposed targets to broaden the social mix of undergraduates"
"It shows, for example, that a candidate from John Roan school, a comprehensive in Blackheath, south London, could win a place with a C grade and two Ds at A-level when the normal offer was three Bs. By contrast, students from Pate’s, a grammar school in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, would receive no such allowance".
"Experts believe the need to meet government quotas means there is a risk that some universities may now be rejecting some of the best-qualified candidates"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1632469_2,00.html
What do you think of this form of positive discrimination?
Scroll to see replies
Crazy stupid and ridiculous.
Surely any job requiring intellignece/good alvel results will go for the best grades. How does anyone know the student at the rubbish state school would n't get the same grades at a good one and that someone at a good state school wouldnt get the same grades at a rubbish one?
Surely any job requiring intellignece/good alvel results will go for the best grades. How does anyone know the student at the rubbish state school would n't get the same grades at a good one and that someone at a good state school wouldnt get the same grades at a rubbish one?
I'm against any discrimination, whether positive or negative - they are two sides of the same coin, in my opinion. If you exercise positive discrimination in favour of applicant A, it leads to negative discrimination against applicant B who would have got it in if the criteria had not been skewed to achieve artificial targets.
Manatee
I'm against any discrimination, whether positive or negative - they are two sides of the same coin, in my opinion. If you exercise positive discrimination in favour of applicant A, it leads to negative discrimination against applicant B who would have got it in if the criteria had not been skewed to achieve artificial targets.
It sends out the wrong message.
People from deprived neighbourhoods are getting the impression that they don't have to work as hard to get into better institutions, whilst those from top state and independent schools are being effectively told that even if they do well in their exams, another less-able student could be favoured anyway.
It seems counter-productive as far as work-ethic goes.
Manatee
I'm against any discrimination, whether positive or negative - they are two sides of the same coin, in my opinion. If you exercise positive discrimination in favour of applicant A, it leads to negative discrimination against applicant B who would have got it in if the criteria had not been skewed to achieve artificial targets.
Just to add, though, I do think that in certain circumstances it may be appropriate to take into account the identity of the school - achieving a B in a tough inner-city comprehensive may be more of an achievement than achieving the same (or better) grade in a school which has better resources and an atmosphere more conducive to academic learning. Universities will generally consider the applicants' potential as well as their exam results, so I suppose in some ways this is already being taken into account - it's a tricky area, though.
I think potential is the main issue, not grades. During uni interviews admissions tutors pick up on the applicant's genuine interest in the subject and try and gauge their potential.
If there is a candidate who has exceptional potential but goes to a disadvantaged school in a deprived area then it is right that they should have a lower offer made. But I'm against lowering grade requirements just because people are from state schools.
If there is a candidate who has exceptional potential but goes to a disadvantaged school in a deprived area then it is right that they should have a lower offer made. But I'm against lowering grade requirements just because people are from state schools.
thefish_uk
I think potential is the main issue, not grades. During uni interviews admissions tutors pick up on the applicant's genuine interest in the subject and try and gauge their potential.
If there is a candidate who has exceptional potential but goes to a disadvantaged school in a deprived area then it is right that they should have a lower offer made. But I'm against lowering grade requirements just because people are from state schools.
If there is a candidate who has exceptional potential but goes to a disadvantaged school in a deprived area then it is right that they should have a lower offer made. But I'm against lowering grade requirements just because people are from state schools.
...and this list appears to be very objective.
Manatee
I'm against any discrimination, whether positive or negative - they are two sides of the same coin, in my opinion. If you exercise positive discrimination in favour of applicant A, it leads to negative discrimination against applicant B who would have got it in if the criteria had not been skewed to achieve artificial targets.
i agree, but i am also aware of the pressure institutions are put under in order to meet targets. it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that this goes on.
beekeeper_
The article that we are debating over. See the first post.
When you favour students from poor state schools, over those from better state schools, it is positive discrimination, obviously.
When you favour students from poor state schools, over those from better state schools, it is positive discrimination, obviously.
ok just read it. i see no problem in lowering grades for those in poor stateschools - it doesn't mean the students in question are LESS capable, it means that they are given more leniency, with regard to obtaining the grades. the chances are, they'd get the 3 Bs or whatever it was, anyway - lowering offers is just a way of making sure they have a bit of a safety net, it doesn't mean the likes of Kings College are letting in people who aren't as capable, it means they're equally capable, but due to their background and environment, they're allowd a bit of leeway and flexibility which is FAIR ENOUGH.
sophieD
ok just read it. i see no problem in lowering grades for those in poor stateschools - it doesn't mean the students in question are LESS capable, it means that they are given more leniency, with regard to obtaining the grades. the chances are, they'd get the 3 Bs or whatever it was, anyway - lowering offers is just a way of making sure they have a bit of a safety net, it doesn't mean the likes of Kings College are letting in people who aren't as capable, it means they're equally capable, but due to their background and environment, they're allowd a bit of leeway and flexibility which is FAIR ENOUGH.
Nope, as the report shows, a student from a poor state school would get in with significantly lower grades than those required by other students.
"It shows, for example, that a candidate from John Roan school, a comprehensive in Blackheath, south London, could win a place with a C grade and two Ds at A-level when the normal offer was three Bs. By contrast, students from Pate’s, a grammar school in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, would receive no such allowance".
beekeeper_
Nope, as the report shows, a student from a poor state school would get in with significantly lower grades than those required by other students.
"It shows, for example, that a candidate from John Roan school, a comprehensive in Blackheath, south London, could win a place with a C grade and two Ds at A-level when the normal offer was three Bs. By contrast, students from Pate’s, a grammar school in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, would receive no such allowance".
"It shows, for example, that a candidate from John Roan school, a comprehensive in Blackheath, south London, could win a place with a C grade and two Ds at A-level when the normal offer was three Bs. By contrast, students from Pate’s, a grammar school in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, would receive no such allowance".
well i interpreted that as he'd win an 'offer' of that. i don't think a university like kings would be letting in students of that callibre, somehow, targets or not
sophieD
well i interpreted that as he'd win an 'offer' of that. i don't think a university like kings would be letting in students of that callibre, somehow, targets or not
I see your point here. You're saying that they make a lower offer as a safety net. It's like Cambridge and Oxford when they sometimes offer 2 Es because they want a person so much, only this is a bit different I suppose.
Rebecca/Becca
I see your point here. You're saying that they make a lower offer as a safety net. It's like Cambridge and Oxford when they sometimes offer 2 Es because they want a person so much, only this is a bit different I suppose.
yes, thats what im saying! they know the student is capable, and could achieve more if in a better school...i'll use the analogy of the 'rough diamond' meaning that the student may not be achieving what they are indeed capable of, when in the right environment, at a good university. its like what oxford recently said about looking for applicants with loads of potential, and sometimes, getting 3As can mean, yes, you can pass exams, but it doesn't always equate to intelligence, which could be showed by a C candiate, if you know what i mean.
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