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Poorer students to get two grade "head start"! watch

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    You know OP! Utter ********.

    I mean, take this situation:

    What if there was a family with an income of £75,000 (rich), but with 6 children?

    and a family with an income of £20,000 (poor) but one child (with a job!)?

    this isn't fair

    money =/= how clever you are or the ability to pass exams!
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    (Original post by JW92)
    I can't see the idea going any further forward because I just think it's attacking the problem from the completely wrong angle. The problems happen long before the universities accept students and this is the crux of the matter. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who went to an underperforming high school. As far as I'm aware of Oxford's admissions procedure, you must have AAA, do well in any entrance tests and perform well at interview - they give the places to the best candidates as opposed to giving anyone a leg up.
    Take it from a former Oxford student, AAA isn't the universal requirements for students there. Most do get AAA but when my fellow history students mostly had AAB offers; as far as I could gather out of the 10 of us at my college the only two that had AAA offers were the ones from state schools. Me - from a Valleys comp in Wales, and a guy from a Belfast. The others, all private, had lower than AAA offers.
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    This would basically undermine the entire exams system.

    In all likeliness top unis would surely all set entrance exams?

    Well done Mandelson, you've succeeded in forcing the left-leaning voter into a vigorous campaigning for opposition parties.
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    (Original post by sorafdfs)
    They should just accept it's because the working-class is ridden with chavs. Most don't care about education, they care about leaving and getting a full time job at Primark and getting pregnant. Stick with funding free trips to theme parks and cinemas in hopes that the "ADD ridden underachievers" will suddenly become straight A students.

    And before you start whinging, I am working class. Have fun computing that x
    you know what: this

    the sad reality of labour... 50% ffs of 16 year olds can't get CCCCC inc. english and maths!

    we've been failed by labour.

    and I thought education was of importance to them? clearly not...
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    It's the opposite of assuming working-class people are 'thick'. The scheme recognises that in the current system, grades aren't awarded based on someone's natural ability, but from their background. I'm interested in the 'sociological crap' you could bring in to support your argument, as most sociological studies in this area show that working-class children are disadvantaged by the education system, and would actually support these measures.
    If pupils from poorer backgroudn who go to bad schools can still get AAA (which does indeed happen all over the place) then it shows that neither their background or school prevents them from doing well. That being the case, it means that people do poorer simply becaus ethey are not academic or do not put the effort in. Either way, there are only a minority of cases where being poor actually prevents you from getting what you want.
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    this make me angry its bloody ridiculous. I'm middle class but were i live the comp schools are good so not as many ppol go to private school (not that my parents could have afforded it anyway) the thing is a had a lot of working class friends and they had the same opportunites because we went to the same schools. I am someone that beleives intelligence isn't measured by academic achievement so yeh i get the whole "potential" thing but giving poorer students a headstart is so unfair its untrue. There are so many oportunities for students who hav messed up regardless of their financial status so we don't need to be giving places to someone just because their working class that is such a huge ridiculous assumption that that student has not got the grades because they aren't fulfilling their potential!?!?! Why do the government keep trying to get an equal mix of socioeconomic students in university when the fact of the matter is in redbricks their is a large percentage of middle class and private school kids. Thats just the way it is, its not a huge problem! They need to stop universities being biased rather than give out grade headstarts, they should introduce more interviewing so that universities can decide on someones potential by them and them only not what social class they fit into.
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    From the perspective of a poor student (my household earns under £10k a year) I wouldn't support that at all. Some are intelligent or hard working, while others are not so fortunate when it comes to their education. It doesn't matter where you've come from, it's really unfair on those who have had a better start in life and there would be the very small matter of grades that would tell people that a person knows (insert subject content here) when in reality they've struggled - and that would lead to a weird imbalance in society.
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    This kind of thing makes me angry. Instead of dealing with the problem properly, politicians think 'levelling the playing field' or 'giving less advantaged students a boost' is the way to solve the issue. No, it just screws over people who have really worked to be where they are. Sometimes a survival-of-the-fittest system is better than positive descrimination or manipulation, however 'unfair' it might seem.

    No. Improve education, make student loans at a level accessible to everyone and accept the fact that some students don't have the motivation or the brains to make it to decent universities.
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    (Original post by carmcarm)
    Nah, actually I meant sociological crap against it, but tbh quite a lot of it is outdated and theres no excuse not to be able to get a decent grade at A-level. Yeah theres certain situations where you might flunk your exams but to give a 2 grade headstart on poorer students is ridiculous!

    And how would grades by based on background?
    Some talent has to come into it and I know this is not a pure meritocracy system but some hard work does pay off and I'm sure most people, working class or otherwise, realise this.

    Some people are just not AAA students they're just not cut out for academic achievement in that way.
    Grades are based on background because the higher student's parents are in the socio-economic scale, the higher grades they tend to achieve, whereas intelligence levels have no correlation to educational attainment. I agree that some people are naturally gifted at certain subjects, however, it is questionable whether this leads to them achieving the deserved grade. In the current system, a talented working-class person could end up with a B, with a less talented middle-class pupil getting an A. (I'm not saying working-class people can't achieve As, I'm just trying to show that the system isn't based on talent nearly as much as people think it is.) You say that hard work pays off - and you're right. Of course someone who works hard will get more out of the education system than someone who doesn't. However, a working-class person will have to work a lot harder than middle-class person to achieve their A.
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    (Original post by user_name_theory)
    This would basically undermine the entire exams system.

    In all likeliness top unis would surely all set entrance exams?

    Well done Mandelson, you've succeeded in forcing the left-leaning voter into a vigorous campaigning for opposition parties.
    :ditto:

    particulary the first point! if grade inflation wasn't enough, this screws everything. just everything.
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    LMFAO I didn't even know it was possible for the UK to hit a new low, they're really scraping the barrel now.
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    Lord Madelson should take that plan and stick it where the sun dosen't shine. Maybe we should all apply to american universities just as a protest to show that we think the education system here is being wrecked by these idiots.
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    (Original post by carmcarm)
    Does this plan assume that all working class students are thick? And they aren't able to get decent grades for themselves? Not everyone who gets into the top unis are rich, there are now some many ways for them to pay for themselves there: loans, grants, bursaries etc. so money isn't too much of a problem.

    Actually, I could bring all kinds of sociological crap into this argument but this plan is just ****!
    Exactly this.
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    Well I'm in two minds about this. The majority of me thinks that your uni entrance should have no bearing on your circumstances and it should purely be based on academic merit. There is a little niggle though that people from lesser schools are at a bit of a disadvantage to someone who pays a fortune for the best education from the best teacher. Most people will learn more if it is a small class and they get lots of extra help rather than being at the back of a 9-5 college that does no extra classes.
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    (Original post by jammythedodger)
    If pupils from poorer backgroudn who go to bad schools can still get AAA (which does indeed happen all over the place) then it shows that neither their background or school prevents them from doing well. That being the case, it means that people do poorer simply becaus ethey are not academic or do not put the effort in. Either way, there are only a minority of cases where being poor actually prevents you from getting what you want.
    I'm not denying that people from working-class people can achieve three As - of course this happens. But it is a lot easier for middle-class people to do this than it is for people from more disadvantaged backgrounds. Therefore, it's not giving them a 'head-start'; it's putting them at a position that's equal to their middle-class counterparts.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Christ alive, what utter ********. - The proposal, that is. It's a plaster cast on necrotising fasciitis.

    I don't see why grammar schools work better than setting by ability in normal schools though to be honest. And if grammar schools are brought back there should be far more option to change schools after 11 and entry to the schools should be based on far more than a simple test like the 11+. Sociological research has shown time and time again however that setting by ability/potential etc is a self-fulfilling prophecy so really grammar schools help the naturally able and do nothing but harm the naturally less able.

    It is still possible to be from the lowest social class, go to a succession of exceptionally poor schools and get into Oxbridge. I have to wonder whether we are trying to change something which may not actually be remediable. - And I don't believe it is remediable without a fundamental change in economic organisation but that's another debate.
    I really do believe grammar schools help. Not the tripartite system, heaven's no, that's the last thing we need. But sperating by ability is what we need.
    The comprehensive system hasn't really helped the worst off, or anyone for that matter.

    I'm sure you saw the report which showed how in careers such as lawyers, judges etc etc (the 'middle class' jobs) there has been a significant reduction in poorer people takign these jobs 40/50 years ago.
    The reason why is because in that time we introduced a comprehensive system.

    I agree though that 11+ is not a suitable answer, we need entrance at 13. But, if we introduce grammar schools, it won't be as impossible to enter them after 11 as was before, simply because the schools left won't be training them to do manual labour, but will still be teaching the childrne the same curriculum.
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    Picks up penny off the floor.

    I get AAA just for that? :puppyeyes:
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    What an incredibly stupid idea.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    I am not surprised. This is the mentality of socialism.
    The mentality of libertarianism is greedy and selfish. Look, I can make silly generalisations too.
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    Surely this would just defeat the point of having grades at all?!
 
 
 
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