Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ed.)
    Well yeah... however the state isn't paying to put a child through private school.

    Grammar schools provide a better quality of education than non-grammar schools in general. Middle class parents spending 1800 pounds on tutoring - which poorer families could not afford - are essentially buying there way into the best schools and all under the guise of meritocracy, brilliant !
    I went to a Grammar school in the days before Comprehensives were invented. My parents had both left school at 14 and worked in manual jobs,and 80 - 90% of my classmates came from the same sort of background. No one had had private tutoring for the entrance exam - or if they had they kept very quiet about it. Most of those I was at school with have done reasonably well and would now be defined as "middle class". Back then there was certainly social mobility.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    I owe everything tom my grammar school
    without them i would be ******

    EDIT: Yeah i'm a son of a labourer and a classroom assistant off to study medicine so that's social mobility to me
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I love my grammar school (L)
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Common fallacy, believing that one example proves a rule. Another recent example being that as President Obama is both an African-American and president, America can no longer be racist. Of course, all it proves is that race hasn't held him back -- not that it doesn't hold back many others. Equally, just because you've had a good education and may be off to Oxford, it doesn't mean that the situation would be as bright for working-class kids generally (as you imply with your comment about social mobility) with the reintroduction of the grammar system. In fact, evidence shows quite the opposite.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Nutta!)


    Or maybe you are the person who made the grades, made the effort, had the motivation.

    Its more about you really not the school you went to
    I went to a grammar, did bugger all work, had next to no interest, but the system pulled me through to AAA also, there is far more to it than how much effort you put in.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by lucho22)
    Many private schools limit the number of AS and A-Levels they allow their pupils to do to improve stats, so the number of UCAS points isn't a good indicator of quality.
    But if you take more A Levels you're likely to get more UCAS points, no?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Worried Pasta)
    So why does the gov. want to close them down if they're outperforming the private sector?
    Let's use an analogy: I could very easily create an exceedingly beautiful mural, if I were to handpick artists to work on it. However, if I wanted to liberate the artistic potential of every artist, however amateur, in this country, it would surely require much harder work to help them to create a beautiful mural.

    As the country needs lots of good students, rather than a chosen few, we have to work within the latter paradigm, not the former.

    Of course, my argument falls apart if one believes that intelligence is static. However, despite the continued existence of supposed intelligence testing (largely due to people's gained inflation of self-importance), there is absolutely no evidence of this, and it seems to be a very counterintuitive position to take.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jismith1989)
    Common fallacy, believing that one example proves a rule. Another recent example being that as President Obama is both an African-American and president, America can no longer be racist. Of course, all it proves is that race hasn't held him back -- not that it doesn't hold back many others. Equally, just because you've had a good education and may be off to Oxford, it doesn't mean that the situation would be as bright for working-class kids generally (as you imply with your comment about social mobility) with the reintroduction of the grammar system. In fact, evidence shows quite the opposite.
    I also have a degree in philosophy - and I wasn't "proving a rule". Just giving example(s) of how it worked for myself and others back in pre-historic times.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by greenleys)
    I also have a degree in philosophy - and I wasn't "proving a rule". Just giving example(s) of how it worked for myself and others back in pre-historic times.
    Well, I was addressing the OP more than you, but I suppose that it equally applies (as your last sentence certainly seems to imply a rule from what precedes, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). Statistics show (despite what sounds like the excellent state of your school) that the vast majority of grammar-school students came from middle-class backgrounds. Even Cameron accepts this (which, I admit, is surprising): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6658613.stm

    http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad....-mobility.html
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    IT doesn't matter what school you go to.. if you are willing to put in the work you will do well, even if your teacher never shows up who's stopping you doing some research yourself at home in order to revise for the exams.

    I moved from a private school to a normal 6th form college, and to be honest I thought the state 6th form was much better than private, in terms of quality of teaching, university opportunities- like more help / financial support available, I actally got better grades than I did at my old private school
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anandv05)
    IT doesn't matter what school you go to.. if you are willing to put in the work you will do well, even if your teacher never shows up who's stopping you doing some research yourself at home in order to revise for the exams.
    I really hate that argument, as it's normally said by a) the naturally gifted, or somebody at least with the ability to self-teach and regurgitate the info. in exams (therefore generally doing well) or b) somebody who bases the whole state education system around their own good experience. (Sorry if this is presumptuous and doesn't apply to you; it's just a general observation where people think their one anecdotal experience can account for the many.)

    What about those who really do need the extra support that a lot of the time you just don't get in state education due to the class sizes, &c.?

    Anyway, this is hardly that surprising. :P
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    And now, having closed down most Grammar schools, the Government is wondering why poorer students are not getting the grades to get into top universities. Shall we open more Grammar schools? No, lets just give these poor kids 7 years of **** education and then let them into top universities anyway.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ambielina)

    What about those who really do need the extra support that a lot of the time you just don't get in state education due to the class sizes, &c.?

    Anyway, this is hardly that surprising. :P
    IF you need extra support just ask for it, even if the class sizes are big you might have to wait behind after lessons or go back in your own spare time, but there's always email. But I can see where you are coming from, some state schools really are cr*p

    Its possible
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anandv05)
    IT doesn't matter what school you go to.. if you are willing to put in the work you will do well, even if your teacher never shows up who's stopping you doing some research yourself at home in order to revise for the exams.

    I moved from a private school to a normal 6th form college, and to be honest I thought the state 6th form was much better than private, in terms of quality of teaching, university opportunities- like more help / financial support available, I actally got better grades than I did at my old private school
    How can you present that first paragraph as fact when you went to a private school? Self-teaching and self-motivation is all very well when you are of 6th form age, but 11 year old kids, who need to be taught the foundations, obviously don't have the maturity for that. They need to be taught, by a good teacher, in a calm and supportive atmosphere.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paddyman4)
    but 11 year old kids, who need to be taught the foundations, obviously don't have the maturity for that. They need to be taught, by a good teacher, in a calm and supportive atmosphere.
    Hmm yeah i suppose, well I've never actually been to a state school so I dunno if state school really is that bad
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Worried Pasta)

    Labours argument is that they brand kids as failures?

    The real joke is that Labour have introduced the 'Gifted and Talented' scheme for comps - which identifies which kids are gifted and talented, and puts them on a database. These kids may be taken out of lessons for more stimulating things, given harder work, taught beyond the syllabus or material from the next key stage.

    But it is done in such a piecemeal and poorly organised way, that it offers pretty much zero advantage. What it does do, is tell all the kids which of them are in the top 10% of the country (i.e. those who would have gone to Grammar schools). The exact same labelling process still occurs, but without the benefit.
    Offline

    2
    I guess it's not too surprising; grammar schools are generally more selective (the clue being in their alternative name :p:) than private schools, so the average ability of pupils is mostly higher on entry. I wouldn't be all that surprised if some private schools were found to have greater value added scores, though- i.e. the overall improvement in pupils' performance between them starting at the school and gaining their qualifications at the end being higher.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    Who cares?

    I don't care if you've had a grammar school education.

    People make out that state schools are so bad, but they're not. Students are perfectly capable of gaining the same grades in state comps. as they would in private or grammar schools - those who use "class disturbances" as an excuse not to go somewhere where most of their friends are going to are just down right arrogant and above their station.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by greenleys)
    I went to a Grammar school in the days before Comprehensives were invented. My parents had both left school at 14 and worked in manual jobs,and 80 - 90% of my classmates came from the same sort of background. No one had had private tutoring for the entrance exam - or if they had they kept very quiet about it. Most of those I was at school with have done reasonably well and would now be defined as "middle class". Back then there was certainly social mobility.
    Yes, that's what has happened in the past.

    My point is that modern day grammar schools aren't promoting social mobility to anything like the extent they may have done in the past, and may even act as a barrier to it. In all honesty what grammar schools may or may not have done in the past isn't really that relevant in my opinion - it's a completely different education climate now.

    I certainly think the modern day grammar schools don't fit with the rest of the modern education system and we would do well to do out with the 11 plus from now. It is unfair that parents can essentially buy their way into the better state schools.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Grammer schools sound good to me, I went to a comprehensive. The sixth form, which is pretty selective, was a much better enviroment to learn in than the lower school. I mean in the lower school if you left your blazer or bag lying around with phone/money in it would probably get jacked. Hell I even got a £3 fountain pen I left on my desk stolen. Oh and yea a lot less violence. In the sixth form people can and do leave mp3's amd phones lying around and no-one ever touches them.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.