Does doing a Law degree mean no Social Life?

Reply 40

Nina166

So, on the whole, would you guys say yoor degree is a LOT HARDER, THE SAME, or EASIER than A-levels, in terms of the amount of time put in...how hard it is to understand and do the work. A lot of people tell me A-levels are actually the hardest thing you'll ever do.

I'll say it outright for those of you who have applied to law and for those who are considering law - a law degree is, and most of you will find it to be,substantially harder than your A-Levels irrespective of what A-Levels you took. Consider the fact that at most law schools worth their salt every single student will have gained at least AAA with most having gained AAAa or AAAA and that students that were previously 'top' at school will just about get a 2.1 when they graduate. Law is, at a quality law school, tough in ways that you will not have encountered before.

Firstly, there is the volume of work - you'll be suprised at how just one or two cases can fill a day... not to mention hundreds of pages of set texts per week coupled with either written or oral assesment at a tutorial...

Secondly, there is the actual conceptual complexity of the law and the fact that you will struggle to understand large parts of your degree even when it is seemingly explained by staff or in a text...

Thirdly, there is the fact that you have to do most of your work by yourself, without any supervision and often without a detailed syllabus, or at least a syllabus that is no-where near as detailed as your A-Level ones, which, looking back, basically tell you exactly what you need to know and to what level of detail. In law you will, if you want a first, be expected to go 'off piste' at every opportunity.

Fourthly, there will be the demands placed on your memory - I do not exagerate when I say that at times you will be expected to know the name of, and the legal principle behind, more than a hundred cases . You might think I'm trying to scare you - however, consider three exams, one for each module in a semester each with three topics to revise and each with 15+ cases. Thinking about it, that's probably a conservative estimate.

I remember that in my first two months of law school, we were quite simply thrown in at the deep end... the stress went way beyond A-Levels. However, you will be amazed at how quickly you will adapt to this - a few modules in and you'll look back at your A-Levels and will laugh at how worried you were over them.

Law is hard, but your whole degree is designed about learning the skills needed to cope with it - actual legal knowledge is to my mind rather secondary - it is the skills that you need to learn and it is the skills that will get you through your degree.

I really really really can't stress to you the difference in difficulty that you will face, however, equally I can't stress to you enough the fact that everyone will be in the same boat and that you will learn to cope very quickly.

Law is tough, but very rewarding, and times, you might even find it to be fun!

Reply 41

Death

Can you please tell me whether you had enough spare time in order to undertake any form of a part-time job? By what you have described, I would imagine that was an impossibility however, many students must have found some way to cope with all that and a part-time job. Also does the workload vary between institutions. Would you end up working harder in Oxbridge than anywhere else?

Reply 42

sokas

8

So now after reading that, I have to ask, do you think that a law conversion course taken in one year is just a joke and will be a very stressful, pressurised and an almost impossible year? or do they cut a substantial amount out of the course in order for it to be just slightly more pressurised than one year in a normal three year course?

Reply 43

jurisprudence

Firstly, the CPE is widely regarded as being tough, but you're right it doesn't cover the same amount as a normal three-year law degree - it is limited to the core subjects as set by the law society.

There are several two-year courses that offer the core subjects in a similar way to the CPE, but offer students scope to take a few extra modules, perhaps to reflect a specialism that the student is interested in. My own university offers such a scheme, and its very popular. It counts as a qualifying law degree in its own right and is not classed as a CPE course. It is however, only open to graduates.

Part time work is possible, however I only know people who work on weekends... It all depends on your own personal time management skills... There are people who seem to manage everything. I worked in a bar for one night a week in first year and didn't find it to be a problem - as I said, you'll need to sort out your own study timetable.

However, I've since given that job up due to study pressures and work full-time during the summer months, but I do accept that I work too hard during term-time, and perhaps could get away with doing less work. However, I also have a 71% average with one 81% mark this year which I feel that I could not have achieved without putting in some serious hours...

See how things stand during your first year, and then make a decision on employment. If you want/need it, you'll be able to fit it in and the same goes for sporting and society activities. I wouldn't worry - you'll need something to take your mind off law.

And as for Oxbridge - I have never been to Oxbridge, but have heard the horror stories. What I can say is that I have several friends who could quite easily have gotten into Oxbrige - they have spectacular grades, come from the right school/social backgrounds etc - and they (and me) all find law at Queen's to be bloody hard... I can't imagine Oxbridge being much harder that what we do.

However, there are two things that I should point out. The first is that we all work very hard, perhaps too hard, but get the grades that reflect this. I expect that we could get by with less work and still get where we want to go. I would imagine the Oxbridge tutorial system would force students to work hard all the time rather than it being a matter of personal choice. The second is that the Oxbridge terms are shorter so there is more work crammed in to a shorter time. So in that sense it may well be harder. Oxbridge students do seem to be able to fit in a huge amound of extraciricular activities though - I always wonder how they manage that.

At the other end of the spectrum there are universities that do offer an easier degree. In my neck of the woods there is the University of Ulster whose law degree is a complete waste of time. Yet again I can qualify this by saying that when it comes to get onto our version of the LPC, UU students tend to do better in the entrance exam (you have to get in on merit - there are very few places). Our LPC exam requires no specific legal knowledge (indeed, if you mention cases etc you actually lose markes) and the UU law degree, while in no sense of the word academic, is quite practical in nature. This seems to offer UU students an adavantage, however I've heard that for the Bar exam and at the top end of the spectrum Queen's students do better.

Does being less academic make the course easier? I'd have to say it does...

Reply 44

Lauren18

14

sokas

So now after reading that, I have to ask, do you think that a law conversion course taken in one year is just a joke and will be a very stressful, pressurised and an almost impossible year? or do they cut a substantial amount out of the course in order for it to be just slightly more pressurised than one year in a normal three year course?

Hi sokas,

As far as I know you take only the seven foundation subjects during the CPE - which includes the 'basics' such as Contract, Crime, EU etc.

Therefore the workload is less than an entire Law degree, but more than you would do during one year of a degree - as you would generally only study four modules, whereas you do seven during the CPE.

Must be quite intense I imagine!

x

Reply 45

jurisprudence

Anyways I've just completed my pre-final year (of 4) and am feeling rather burnt-out by everyhing law related, so I'm taking a year out to go any study international business at a small American university next year... So perhaps when I come back I too will be shocked again at how hard law is.

I'd think that Lawz would be the man to talk to here - I spoke to an associate at Herbert Smith recently who said that the BCL was a hothouse where they just piled on the pressure... Its put me off applying for it to some extent - I already feel like I'm in a hothouse - what's it really like?

Reply 46

Phonicsdude

19

jurisprudence

I'll say it outright for those of you who have applied to law and for those who are considering law - a law degree is, and most of you will find it to be,substantially harder than your A-Levels irrespective of what A-Levels you took. Consider the fact that at most law schools worth their salt every single student will have gained at least AAA with most having gained AAAa or AAAA and that students that were previously 'top' at school will just about get a 2.1 when they graduate. Law is, at a quality law school, tough in ways that you will not have encountered before.

Firstly, there is the volume of work - you'll be suprised at how just one or two cases can fill a day... not to mention hundreds of pages of set texts per week coupled with either written or oral assesment at a tutorial...

Secondly, there is the actual conceptual complexity of the law and the fact that you will struggle to understand large parts of your degree even when it is seemingly explained by staff or in a text...

Thirdly, there is the fact that you have to do most of your work by yourself, without any supervision and often without a detailed syllabus, or at least a syllabus that is no-where near as detailed as your A-Level ones, which, looking back, basically tell you exactly what you need to know and to what level of detail. In law you will, if you want a first, be expected to go 'off piste' at every opportunity.

Fourthly, there will be the demands placed on your memory - I do not exagerate when I say that at times you will be expected to know the name of, and the legal principle behind, more than a hundred cases . You might think I'm trying to scare you - however, consider three exams, one for each module in a semester each with three topics to revise and each with 15+ cases. Thinking about it, that's probably a conservative estimate.

I remember that in my first two months of law school, we were quite simply thrown in at the deep end... the stress went way beyond A-Levels. However, you will be amazed at how quickly you will adapt to this - a few modules in and you'll look back at your A-Levels and will laugh at how worried you were over them.

Law is hard, but your whole degree is designed about learning the skills needed to cope with it - actual legal knowledge is to my mind rather secondary - it is the skills that you need to learn and it is the skills that will get you through your degree.

I really really really can't stress to you the difference in difficulty that you will face, however, equally I can't stress to you enough the fact that everyone will be in the same boat and that you will learn to cope very quickly.

Law is tough, but very rewarding, and times, you might even find it to be fun!

An excellent post, that I will link to the "help and advice..." thread. :smile:

HOWEVER, I do think you are guilty of scaremongering to an extent.

The sentence in the first paragraph that Ive made bold is the best example. Being top of your school means very little. It assumes that lawyers are cleverer than students who wish to undertake other degrees. My main objection however is that if EVEN THOSED WHO ARE AMONG THE VERY BRIGHTEST IN THEIR YEAR "just about" get a 2:1, then how the heck is it possible to get a high 2:1 or a 1st? :p:

Also, I know this was not the objective of your post, but perhaps emphasising the positive aspects of studying a law degree might have made the piece more balanced...Lets face it, if the above was an accurate reflection of a law degree, then not many people would undertake one.

Excellent post though. You shall receive rep... :cool:

Reply 47

Death

Thanks jursiprudence. Some real good info there. What exactly is required in the LPC? It sounds a little unfair that UU students have an advantage over other students in the LPC.

Reply 48

OldMan

jurisprudence

...Fourthly, there will be the demands placed on your memory - I do not exagerate when I say that at times you will be expected to know the name of, and the legal principle behind, more than a hundred cases . You might think I'm trying to scare you - however, consider three exams, one for each module in a semester each with three topics to revise and each with 15+ cases. Thinking about it, that's probably a conservative estimate...

And that is for those Universities that let you get away with taking the exams after each semester. At Oxford your final result depends on one set of exams covering almost 2 1/2 years work - 9 or 10 options :eek:

Reply 49

Phonicsdude

19

Oxford is an exception...

Reply 50

Profesh

20

Oxford is for "exceptions".

Reply 51

Phonicsdude

19

So is cambridge and UCL and a few other top institutions (LSE, Kings and...that's it :p:

)

Reply 52

jurisprudence

Looking back over my post, I don't view any of it as 'scaremongering' as such - its all quite accurate... However - that is my experience of law, but I'm sure that some of the other law students here who have a few years under their belts will agree with most of what I've said. The workload description is accurate as is the point about the cases... That law is conceptually difficult really doesn't need saying.

There is an interesting thread about getting a first and no-one is denying that with the right amount of work, but more importantly, the right technique, a first is possible. But look at the number of firsts awarded at the top law schools - very few - even where, as I noted, most students would be regarded as being 'top' on most other degree courses. However, the debate over how to get a first is better left for another time, but suffice it to say that academic ability is but one aspect.

Our LPC is substantially different to what you guys will go through. Firstly, there are only around 150 places and these places are awarded purely on merit - being able to pay or having a firm to sponsor you won't get you in the door like it does in England & Wales. The LPC course lasts two years, but those your time is spent between an academic institution (affiliated with The Queen's University) and your 'master' irrespective of whether you are aiming to be a solicitor or barister.

After the two years you are in the same position as you would be in England and Wales after you have completed your two-years training.

There is also very little sponsorship, however some of the larger commercial firms in Belfast will pay your fees (around £8000) if you stay with them for a few years after qualifying and some will pay you a salary when you are in your two year period.

Its all very competitive, however it ensures that the lawyers in Northern Ireland are pretty good, especially the baristers. Though given that Lord Hutton was a graduate of this system, I can't say I have much confidence in it myself... Quite a few English students are attracted to this, however most students tend to be either Queen's or UU students, or Northern Irish students who have studied in England. Equally, many students who study in Northern Ireland, opt to go to LPC institutions in England, simply because qualifying here costs a lot more than it does in England and Wales.

That UU students do better is a point that annoys many Queen's students given the fact that the UU degree is less demanding (its BBC etc) and due to the fact that the Institute of Professional Legal Studies is part of Queen's. However, its due to the nature of the exam and the fact that Queen's students appear to treat the entry exam as a legal knowledge exam when in fact it is a skills based paper. I think that any Queen's student who knows that I'm on about will do better on the exam, and also, there is no denying that Queen's students dominate the ranks of those qualifying at the bar.

Reply 53

Colly

1

Just out of interest, can people who study at Queens and do their LPC in NI go straight to practice in the UK or is there any conversion process?

Reply 54

jurisprudence

People don't do law because it is easy, or they expect it to be easy. If you expect it to be a walk in the park and see gentlemen debating the finer points of tort reform in a moral framework- you ARE in for a rude awakening. If I have to say it again I will - it is tough, but it is very very very rewarding.

People go for it because when they graduate they can say to themselves that they have really achieved something. And there is the pay off of earning big bucks in the city if you're into that kind of thing, or wearing a wig if that floats your boat.

I know that applicants to law degrees ARE filled with a lust for learning 'the law' and a firm commitment to using your skills for the good of the downtrodden (i was - John Grisham's 'The Street Lawyer' was my badly written bible in first year) - but that kind of thing won't last too long I assure you, even if you are, like me, a firmly left-leaning and formerly bearded individual.

For instance... have you heard that human rights aren't all they're cracked up to be? Read Marx's 'On the Jewish Question' - you'll never look at HR law in the same light again, well you won't if you're interested in that kind of thing.

Reply 55

jurisprudence

Colly

Just out of interest, can people who study at Queens and do their LPC in NI go straight to practice in the UK or is there any conversion process?

Once you qualify in one of England, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Irish Republic you can, quite easily, practice in any of the others.

The difficultly arises if you want to study law in Northern Ireland of the Republic of Ireland and study for your LPC in England and Wales. From next year I believe the Irish degrees will not be qualifying law degrees - Irish students will have to study English Land Law in England before being able to do an LPC course.

Our land law is VERY different to yours... we didn't get any of the 1925 reforms you see. However, given that many of your 1925 reforms are of a rather dubious nature I don't think thats a bad thing. Irish land law is archaic, and the the core text - the only real text - is over a thousand pages long. Its nasty.

Reply 56

jurisprudence

I see you are a fellow Northerner - in that case can I direct my weak (and unsubstantiated) criticisms of the 1925 reforms to the English members of this group!

Reply 57

Colly

1

Thanks for that, Queens is my insurance choice and was just making sure it wouldn't limit my options if I ended up there. I would rep you but unfortunately my rep does nothing...

Reply 58

Colly

1

jurisprudence

I see you are a fellow Northerner - in that case can I direct my weak (and unsubstantiated) criticisms of the 1925 reforms to the English members of this group!

It's all lost on me anyway. I'm from Newry; is there anyone in your class from the Abbey CBS do you know, out of interest.

Reply 59

foxo

17

jurisprudence

People go for it because when they graduate they can say to themselves that they have really achieved something. And there is the pay off of wearing a wig if that floats your boat.

My sentiments exactly. :biggrin:

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