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There will be no mercy for the Scots

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Original post by Classical Liberal
Would it?

The waters around Scotland are not Scottish territory, they are UK territory, are they not. As they are UK territory, why wouldn't the UK government be allowed to surround the oil fields with frigates and enforce a blockade until a deal is done?


They are in Scottish waters. Scotland is still its own country, if Scotland left the union the UK would have no claim to them. The UK is not a country, therefore has no claim to anything from a nation that leaves it.
Original post by Shomberlon
Good luck with that, I'd love to see the bumbling idiots in Westminster try and change the boarders.


Suppose the Borders votes 90:10 in favour of No. Would it not make sense to just move the line northwards to take that into account?
Original post by Midlander
Suppose the Borders votes 90:10 in favour of No. Would it not make sense to just move the line northwards to take that into account?


So if Aberdeen votes 90:10 for no would you just take a chunk out and make it English. By moving the boarder you make them part of England, now try selling that to a proud Scot living in the boarders.
Original post by hesacommunist
x


Apologies, good sir, but wanting to establish a new country and in so doing draw a line where one side says 'Scotland' and the other 'United Kingdom' does kind of imply that you believe the people on either side are inherently different.

It is implied by saying things like being outnumbered 10 to 1 by the 'others' in the UK, wanting to be proud of 'our' culture and so on. We speak the same language, we play the same sports, we watch the same TV, we listen to the same music and most of all we share the same piece of rock.

What is the merit in dividing such people by an arbitrary line?
Original post by Shomberlon
So if Aberdeen votes 90:10 for no would you just take a chunk out and make it English. By moving the boarder you make them part of England, now try selling that to a proud Scot living in the boarders.


It wouldn't be English, it would be British. If the proud Scot has such a problem with being in association with England he should get over himself and realise what century he lives in. Lines on a map don't define who we are.
Original post by Midlander
Apologies, good sir, but wanting to establish a new country and in so doing draw a line where one side says 'Scotland' and the other 'United Kingdom' does kind of imply that you believe the people on either side are inherently different.

It is implied by saying things like being outnumbered 10 to 1 by the 'others' in the UK, wanting to be proud of 'our' culture and so on. We speak the same language, we play the same sports, we watch the same TV, we listen to the same music and most of all we share the same piece of rock.

What is the merit in dividing such people by an arbitrary line?


I'm female, but thanks for that.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, I believe no such thing. The merit in dividing people? Have you listened to nothing I've said, do you actually believe having a similar culture is enough of a reason to stay together, when given the opportunity to improve the lives of millions?

Cutting our budget by £7bn, but we're supposed to accept it because we share the same piece of rock. Stop trying to twist my words in your use of inverted commas. I never used the words 'our culture' or 'others'.

Should children have to rely on food banks, because we watch the same tv? Its sadly a no from me, but others might agree with you.

Refute my reasons for wanting independence and I will mark a great big cross in the No box. I'm not unwilling to listen to reason, I only want what is best for Scotland, and at this very moment in time I believe it to be independence.
Original post by Midlander
It wouldn't be English, it would be British. If the proud Scot has such a problem with being in association with England he should get over himself and realise what century he lives in. Lines on a map don't define who we are.


That doesn't make any sense. Which part of Britain will it be? Britain isn't a country, but rather a collection of countries. If you were to cut a part of Scotland out and just call it Britain, you are creating a completely new entity altogether. Even though it would be part of Britain, it would still have to be a part of England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

There is nothing wrong or outdated with being proud of where you're from, but there is a problem expecting someone living on the boarders to have the boundaries changed and suddenly be party of England.
Original post by hesacommunist
I'm female, but thanks for that.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, I believe no such thing. The merit in dividing people? Have you listened to nothing I've said, do you actually believe having a similar culture is enough of a reason to stay together, when given the opportunity to improve the lives of millions?

Cutting our budget by £7bn, but we're supposed to accept it because we share the same piece of rock. Stop trying to twist my words in your use of inverted commas. I never used the words 'our culture' or 'others'.

Should children have to rely on food banks, because we watch the same tv? Its sadly a no from me, but others might agree with you.

Refute my reasons for wanting independence and I will mark a great big cross in the No box. I'm not unwilling to listen to reason, I only want what is best for Scotland, and at this very moment in time I believe it to be independence.


Don't you mean a big cross in the Yes box?
Original post by Shomberlon
Don't you mean a big cross in the Yes box?


No, I said if he can refute my reasons for wanting independence I'd put a cross in the No box. Otherwise I'll remain a Yes vote.
Original post by hesacommunist
No, I said if he can refute my reasons for wanting independence I'd put a cross in the No box. Otherwise I'll remain a Yes vote.


Ah sorry I miss read :colondollar: I wonder how the OP and him feels about me being a YES voting Englishman? :biggrin:
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
Just an FYI but I live in Scotland and there are a majority of No voters sooooo while it's standard practice for the Yes howler monkeys to spit at us and call us traitors for not abdicating reason because Mel Gibson made an entertaining movie, it really shouldn't be yours. :P

Most Scots and people in Scotland are as fed up with the YeSNP campaign as the English. We're Scots aye but we're also British and we recognise our centuries of economic, cultural and personal links with England and the rest of the British isles.

I certainly don't fancy Salmond's economic suicide, or having some Mickey Mouse passport for Scotland forced upon me, or having a border between me in Scotland and friends and family down south.

I'm nae traitor, loon.

Thank you. I wish you well.
Original post by Shomberlon
Ah sorry I miss read :colondollar: I wonder how the OP and him feels about me being a YES voting Englishman? :biggrin:


It's fine, don't worry about it! Lol, I'm sure they'll let you know about it!
Original post by Shomberlon
That doesn't make any sense. Which part of Britain will it be? Britain isn't a country, but rather a collection of countries. If you were to cut a part of Scotland out and just call it Britain, you are creating a completely new entity altogether. Even though it would be part of Britain, it would still have to be a part of England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

There is nothing wrong or outdated with being proud of where you're from, but there is a problem expecting someone living on the boarders to have the boundaries changed and suddenly be party of England.


Again, they wouldn't be part of England because none of the remaining 3 constituent states are sovereign nations. Great Britain is an island and the country is called the UK. Any parts of what was previously Scotland would remain in the UK. You also seem to think that I'm suggesting the borders be changed whatever the people in the Borders want. That isn't the case. What I am suggesting is that if the people in that region vote against independence in overwhelming numbers then it would be pretty clear that they want to stay in the UK.

So to accommodate that you'd need to alter the existing borders.
Original post by hesacommunist
I'm female, but thanks for that.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, I believe no such thing. The merit in dividing people? Have you listened to nothing I've said, do you actually believe having a similar culture is enough of a reason to stay together, when given the opportunity to improve the lives of millions?

Cutting our budget by £7bn, but we're supposed to accept it because we share the same piece of rock. Stop trying to twist my words in your use of inverted commas. I never used the words 'our culture' or 'others'.

Should children have to rely on food banks, because we watch the same tv? Its sadly a no from me, but others might agree with you.

Refute my reasons for wanting independence and I will mark a great big cross in the No box. I'm not unwilling to listen to reason, I only want what is best for Scotland, and at this very moment in time I believe it to be independence.


I haven't argued that cultural similarities are the *sole* reason for preserving the union but have done so to refute arguments from other Yes voters that cultural differences are reasons for voting that way. Budgets go up and down but the Barnett formula, devised in 1979, is designed in such a way that Scotland receives disproportionately high sums in public expenditure.

This is designed to accommodate a much more sparsely populated country and recognises the increased costs of managing such a population. On a per head basis, Scotland receives the second highest amounts of public spending in the UK, narrowly behind Northern Ireland. Even when you include North Sea oil the Treasury gives Scotland more than it receives so if you think the deal is peculiarly harsh on Scotland, it isn't, and if you think it is going to massively change with independence, it won't, especially at the beginning.

These are lean economic times worldwide. Conservatism is on the rise in Europe (even in Norway which is held up by some as a bastion of socialist thinking) and every average person has felt the squeeze. I can understand that when times are tough it is tempting to look at any alternative as good one. For the reasons above and because co-operation is the best solution to the problems of society, I will be voting No and would implore everyone else voting to do so.
Scotland could continue to issue its own money vuia Clydesdale bank etc, but without the explicit backing of the Bank of England as it has now, it would be about as safe and stable as monopoly money, or bitcoin, whatever you prefer.
How long can negotiations be drawn out for in the event of a Yes vote? I know independence is targeted for 2016, but if it's clear that negotiations won't be finalised by then, what happens?
Original post by Midlander
Again, they wouldn't be part of England because none of the remaining 3 constituent states are sovereign nations. Great Britain is an island and the country is called the UK. Any parts of what was previously Scotland would remain in the UK. You also seem to think that I'm suggesting the borders be changed whatever the people in the Borders want. That isn't the case. What I am suggesting is that if the people in that region vote against independence in overwhelming numbers then it would be pretty clear that they want to stay in the UK.

So to accommodate that you'd need to alter the existing borders.


There's no need to accommodate, as a nation they vote if it doesn't swing your way then tough. You can't alter boarders because you'll be taking land off of Scotland that is rightfully theirs.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Shomberlon
There's no need to accommodate, as a nation they vote if it doesn't swing your way then tough. You can't alter boarders because you'll be taking land off of Scotland that is rightfully theirs.


So you are in essence saying:

1. People within the UK have a right to self determination but people within Scotland don't.

2. People within the UK are allowed to complain at the majority deciding a vote but people within Scotland aren't.

What utter hypocrisy.
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
Just an FYI but I live in Scotland and there are a majority of No voters sooooo while it's standard practice for the Yes howler monkeys to spit at us and call us traitors for not abdicating reason because Mel Gibson made an entertaining movie, it really shouldn't be yours. :P

Most Scots and people in Scotland are as fed up with the YeSNP campaign as the English. We're Scots aye but we're also British and we recognise our centuries of economic, cultural and personal links with England and the rest of the British isles.

I certainly don't fancy Salmond's economic suicide, or having some Mickey Mouse passport for Scotland forced upon me, or having a border between me in Scotland and friends and family down south.

I'm nae traitor, loon.


What horrendous arguments. What would make a Scottish passport "Mickey Mouse"?
Reply 159
Original post by Mechie
What horrendous arguments. What would make a Scottish passport "Mickey Mouse"?


Lack of biometrics?

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