Criminal law- is this theft?

Are there any theft offences here? Can you steal from a fountain where members of the public voluntarily part with their money into a fountain, knowing the money has a risk of being stolen? There is no 'repairer's lien' that the local authority might have - I don't think it's fraud either. The property doesn't belong to anyone. It seems to be deposited into a phantom depository with nobody having an interest in.

Thought this might challenge you

Hi, I just thought up this question (yes, I'm bored!) and wondered whether it was theft.

The luvvy fountain is a popular tourist attraction in central London as many couples visit this romantic location every day. In fact, the local council estimates that the Luvvy Fountain is visited by approximately five million people every year. Part of the 'tradition' of the fountain is throwing a £1 coin into the fountain and by local folklore, this is supposed to bless couples with a happy relationship and future. Given the sheer number of visitors and the number of coins thrown into the fountain, it is estimated the bed of the deep fountain is home to millions of pound coins (with which the council does not interfere as it is unsure as to what to do with the money).

Norris hatches a plan with Wally to visit the fountain in the middle of the night. Norris is to impersonate an official responsible for the fountain's night time security and uses a pen and card to create a fake 'official' badge. The two arrive in the middle of the night, and Norris helps Wally into the water with his scuba diving equipment, while Norris stands guard impersonating the official. Wally descends to the bed of the fountain, sweeping hundreds of pound coins into a special watertight box. In fact, Norris removes around £3000 worth of coins. When Wally returns to the surface with the money, he finds that Norris has disappeared and a note is left with the following written: "Sorry Wally, I changed my mind. I don't want a life of crime anymore and I think we're going to get caught anyway. I'm out."

Ignoring any possible local bylaws, discuss the criminal liability of both Norris and Wally.

Are there any theft offences here? Can you steal from a fountain where members of the public voluntarily part with their money into a fountain, knowing the money has a risk of being stolen? There is no 'repairer's lien' that the local authority might have - I don't think it's fraud either. The property doesn't belong to anyone. It seems to be deposited into a phantom depository with nobody having an interest in.

Thought this might challenge you

Doesn't the fountain belong to the council?

The fact that there's a risk of the money being stolen is irrelevant. I'd argue that it hasn't been abandoned and has been "earmarked" under s.5 as for the owner of the fountain (the council, as LeeC says) to dispose of, in the same way that something put in a bin isn't abandoned.

EDIT: Out of interest, where did you get this problem from? Are you focusing solely on taking money from the fountain? If not, I think there is a fraud committed (fraud by false representation through impersonating the "official" in charge of the fountain). There are also issues of accomplice liability and joint enterprise. It's quite a nasty problem considering how short it is...

Haha, I just created it now. I know it's sad, but I really miss criminal law (took it in my first year) and I remember practising so many past papers that I could probably set exam question on it
That said, it wasn't entirely random - I have visited the Trevvie Fountain in Rome last month and wondered about the liability one would have if you removed coins from it.

First year? Are you an undergrad then?

How's the vac scheme application prep going? I take it you're applying to A&O?

I'm going into second year of undergrad

Vac schemes for 2012? I haven't started the applications as of yet, should I have? I've attended a lot of open days that I managed to somehow get onto, even though they weren't really for first years I'm just researching firms this month, will do the actual applications next month onwards. And no, it's tongue in cheek - I hated A&O. I'm aiming for medium sized firms.

Yourself?

And you're right - there are elements of fraud (I think!) and secondary liability in there. In fact, I would assume that Norris is still liable as I don't think leaving a letter is 'unequivocal' repentence (Beccera and Cooper).

Yeah, I'm gonna be a second year in October too.

I don't think there's much we can do yet; applications for Magic/Silver Circle firms don't open until October/November anyway (although I imagine the application process for medium-sized firms might not be quite as formal). I'm not too sure where I'll end up; I always thought I wanted to be a barrister for the advocacy, but I'm thinking it might be safer to qualify as a solicitor and get an advocacy certificate so I get the same rights of audience. The competition for pupillage is too fierce for my liking.

I'm going into second year of undergrad

Vac schemes for 2012? I haven't started the applications as of yet, should I have? I've attended a lot of open days that I managed to somehow get onto, even though they weren't really for first years I'm just researching firms this month, will do the actual applications next month onwards. And no, it's tongue in cheek - I hated A&O. I'm aiming for medium sized firms.

Yourself?

And you're right - there are elements of fraud (I think!) and secondary liability in there. In fact, I would assume that Norris is still liable as I don't think leaving a letter is 'unequivocal' repentence (Beccera and Cooper).

Even if it were unequivocal, N would be guilty of several inchoate offences - conspiracy, that one in that stupid act I've forgotten the name of but it was made in 2007 (haven't done crim for well over a year) etc.

Was it the Serious Organised Crime Act?

Is it only conspiracy? I'd say the full offence is made out, with secondary liability attributed to Norris, as opposed to conspiracy which is merely agreement between the two parties.

Was it the Serious Organised Crime Act?

Is it only conspiracy? I'd say the full offence is made out, with secondary liability attributed to Norris, as opposed to conspiracy which is merely agreement between the two parties.