Why is it fair for people with money to get a better education than me?
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Original post by Emaemmaemily
You don't seem to understand. Their parents are that way because of how society has shaped them, it's a circle. If we break the cycle, changing the wealth distribution and social mobility, then children would be brought up differently. The way the parents affect them is very much relevent.
How have they been shaped by society?
Original post by Emaemmaemily
You know what, I'm not making things up. There's no need to be rude over a difference of opinions. You have no idea how many people I know in what situations, or my experiences, so don't make assumptions.
Perhaps when I have time to reply properly, I will do so.
Perhaps when I have time to reply properly, I will do so.
If you are referring to my last paragraph then I do not see how I have been rude. I didn't mean making up as in you were flat out lying. Perhaps I should have phrased it better, but I meant that you can't extrapolate your experiences and pass comment on the whole population. I gave the number 10 as an example, even if you know 100 rich people you wouldn't be able to say that most rich people haven't earned their money.
Original post by Iron Lady
How have they been shaped by society?
Is this a suggestion that people aren't shaped by their environment, or is it actually a serious question?
Original post by clareyyyyyyy
I attended a state school and got 10 A*s and 2As.... which was by no means the best grades in the year either...
Depends on the state school I guess. It was a catholic school though, but does that really have all that much bearing on the situation?
Depends on the state school I guess. It was a catholic school though, but does that really have all that much bearing on the situation?
actually according to my college prospectus "at gcse catholic schools out perform the national averga by 6%"
and
"75% of catholic schools are judged by ofsted as good or outstanding"
so maybe its the catholic work ethic?
Original post by Mister Dead
Is this a suggestion that people aren't shaped by their environment, or is it actually a serious question?
There's a difference between "environment" and "wider society".
Anyway, a society shouldn't really exist as far as I'm concerned - people should take responsibility for their actions.
Original post by im so academic
fudgesundae is completely correct in what he is saying. As far as I'm concerned, if a poor working class person is not willing to help themselves, why should society bother helping them?
This is what you do. You did it to me. Instead of actually replying to my post, you chose to mention that "you'll do it later". Yet again, you say you'll "reply properly... when you have the time to do so".
Instead of refuting valid points, you just avoid the issue altogether.
This is what you do. You did it to me. Instead of actually replying to my post, you chose to mention that "you'll do it later". Yet again, you say you'll "reply properly... when you have the time to do so".
Instead of refuting valid points, you just avoid the issue altogether.
I have already answered most of the comments in a previous post, it would be going around in circles, which I don't have the time or patience to do.
Why should we help working class children? Because they are CHILDREN who don't know any better, and if we change the way the educational system works they will stand more of a chance of NOT inheriting their parent's bad attitudes.
Original post by Iron Lady
How have they been shaped by society?
The same way we are all shaped by society, only it affects those in different situations differently. Some people have the right personality to handle it better without too much help, which is great, but many don't.
As I've said, I really don't have time to go around in circles with my points right now. I have to get to work, etc. I'm not trying to avoid things, because this is a conversation that really interests me, so hopefully when I get more time I can come back and explain myself further.
Original post by jfranks
actually according to my college prospectus "at gcse catholic schools out perform the national averga by 6%"
and
"75% of catholic schools are judged by ofsted as good or outstanding"
so maybe its the catholic work ethic?
and
"75% of catholic schools are judged by ofsted as good or outstanding"
so maybe its the catholic work ethic?
i've always put it down to the discipline, personally. we didn't have lunchtime detentions, only after school detentions, parents were always informed of what was going on and very few students dared to be rude to teachers etc. since leaving high school, the discipline has gone downhill with a new head and a lot of new staff, and so have the results, the best results from last summer were around 10 or 11 a*s, whereas in my year there were several people with 12 a*s. are results linked to discipline, perhaps?
Original post by fudgesundae
If you are referring to my last paragraph then I do not see how I have been rude. I didn't mean making up as in you were flat out lying. Perhaps I should have phrased it better, but I meant that you can't extrapolate your experiences and pass comment on the whole population. I gave the number 10 as an example, even if you know 100 rich people you wouldn't be able to say that most rich people haven't earned their money.
Precisely. Not all rich people would have inherited their money. And if they inherited their money, what's so bad about that? (Unless you want the state to take away all your savings after you die).
Original post by Emaemmaemily
I have already answered most of the comments in a previous post, it would be going around in circles, which I don't have the time or patience to do.
Avoiding the issue once again because you cannot refute me.
Why should we help working class children? Because they are CHILDREN who don't know any better, and if we change the way the educational system works they will stand more of a chance of NOT inheriting their parent's bad attitudes.
A said a "poor working class person". I did not specifically mention children.
However, children will have been raised with their parents for at least three years PRIOR to even starting school. Are you trying to tell me that the education system overcome a child's upbringing since birth?
The same way we are all shaped by society, only it affects those in different situations differently. Some people have the right personality to handle it better without too much help, which is great, but many don't.
Many don't and that's how it is. Not everyone can be the same.
As I've said, I really don't have time to go around in circles with my points right now. I have to get to work, etc. I'm not trying to avoid things, because this is a conversation that really interests me, so hopefully when I get more time I can come back and explain myself further.
Original post by Emaemmaemily
The same way we are all shaped by society, only it affects those in different situations differently. Some people have the right personality to handle it better without too much help, which is great, but many don't.
The same way we are all shaped by society, only it affects those in different situations differently. Some people have the right personality to handle it better without too much help, which is great, but many don't.
Exactly. Is that not the point? Not everyone can have what it takes to succeed. There aren't unlimited high paying jobs, some people will do better than others, and like you say it is those who have the right personality who will be better placed to succeed.
Original post by fudgesundae
Exactly. Is that not the point? Not everyone can have what it takes to succeed. There aren't unlimited high paying jobs, some people will do better than others, and like you say it is those who have the right personality who will be better placed to succeed.
No, it's those who have the right schooling who are better placed to succeed.
Original post by Mister Dead
No, it's those who have the right schooling who are better placed to succeed.
No, it is those who have the right background/support who are better placed to succeed as an educational divide is already present between rich and poor children BEFORE they even start school.
Original post by Mister Dead
No, it's those who have the right schooling who are better placed to succeed.
The poster I replied to alluded to some children coping with their backgrounds better.
Also, so what if some children have better schooling? There are some state schools which are better than some private schools and far far better than the worst state schools. Should the good state schools be closed down as well because it isn't fair to the people in the rubbish ones?
Original post by fudgesundae
The poster I replied to alluded to some children coping with their backgrounds better.
noted
Also, so what if some children have better schooling? There are some state schools which are better than some private schools and far far better than the worst state schools. Should the good state schools be closed down as well because it isn't fair to the people in the rubbish ones?
not going to let myself get drawn into this debate because it always just seems to be people justifying their personal privilige/failure/success, but we both know that quality public schools outnumber quality state schools, and the real quality state schools, those that dominate the tables, are not in ****ty, run down areas providing quality schooling to children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Original post by Mister Dead
not going to let myself get drawn into this debate because it always just seems to be people justifying their personal privilige/failure/success, but we both know that quality public schools outnumber quality state schools, and the real quality state schools, those that dominate the tables, are not in ****ty, run down areas providing quality schooling to children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
not going to let myself get drawn into this debate because it always just seems to be people justifying their personal privilige/failure/success, but we both know that quality public schools outnumber quality state schools, and the real quality state schools, those that dominate the tables, are not in ****ty, run down areas providing quality schooling to children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Why is that the case?
It's all dependent on intake. Selective schools (regardless if they're private or state) will always do better than comprehensive schools.
Original post by Mister Dead
and the real quality state schools, those that dominate the tables, are not in ****ty, run down areas providing quality schooling to children from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Exactly. So should we shut these down, just as people are advocating shutting down private schools?
I don't think there are enough schools to close any right now.
Original post by Mister Dead
I don't think there are enough schools to close any right now.
Opening up hundreds of new schools wouldn't "solve" anything.
I wouldn't say fair to all, but for those who have parents who have worked their way from nothing to have great jobs, why can't they pay for the best education for their children? I know thats not always the case, those with parents born into the upper class spring to mind, but in the first case, can you argue?
(edited 11 years ago)
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