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Where do we draw the line with the term homophobia ?

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Original post by thesabbath
That's not the fault of the law which applied to everyone equally. They wanted to do something else and call it by an existing name which was already well defined and had a specific meaning. One might think that a civil partnership covered the legal privileges of a marriage but no, they want to pretend to be the same. It's like a woman saying its unfair she is called a woman and wants to be called a man (well, I suppose trannies do that now).

As to why the State is so concerned with re-ordering institutions at gunpoint to accommodate the whims of those who can't even reproduce and therefore have no genetic investment in the next generation I have absolutely no idea.


One might think that, but one would be wrong. Civil partnerships aren't equal to marriage. And tranny is an offensive term, but I presume you already know that.

They're not ordering institutions to do anything, churches can opt-in if they choose to, but it's not obligatory. Besides which, gay people can reproduce, presuming they're not infertile.
Original post by KingStannis
So you're saying that if giving the choice the British pubic would illeagalise freedom of religion?

C'mon, give us more credit than that.


No, I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm saying that if we banned anything that a fraction of people disagreed with, then we'd end up banning everything. A fraction of people (myself included) disagree with organized religion, and at least there is some logical reason to feel this way. However I'm certainly not advocating removing freedom of religion; it is without a doubt a freedom which everyone should have. I would not vote to make organized religion illegal, despite disagreeing with it - that is the difference here. I am saying that we shouldn't suspend the rights of others just because we do not support who they are.

thesabbath
Everyone already had the same rights to get married, marriage being a union between a man and a woman, so talk of "social liberties" is sophistry. What homosexuals wanted to do was form a different arrangement and gain the right to call this entity a "marriage" and teach in primary schools that it is a "marriage" and insist that everyone else calls their relationship a "marriage".


Civil partnership is not the same as marriage. The fact is that some homosexuals wanted to be married and not to share a civil partnership. The argument shouldn't be "why should they be allowed to marry?" but "why shouldn't they be allowed to marry?". If you can give me a cogent and reasonable answer to the second question, I will most definitely recognize it.

Abdul-Karim
The UK runs on democracy and majority vote. If my opinion and views conflict with the dominant ideology, so be it. My views however still stand


Correct - and I completely agree. You are free to your opinion. However, everybody is equally free to criticize it. Moreover, when your opinion is based on religious teachings, I feel that as a largely secular nation that argument shouldn't be enough to prevent people from having equal opportunities.
Original post by arcturus7
Civil partnership is not the same as marriage. The fact is that some homosexuals wanted to be married and not to share a civil partnership. The argument shouldn't be "why should they be allowed to marry?" but "why shouldn't they be allowed to marry?". If you can give me a cogent and reasonable answer to the second question, I will most definitely recognize it.


Because a marriage is between a man and a woman. So why should this arrangement have the same name?
You're homophobic, there's no doubt about it, but I'm not going to jump on your back and tell you to stop being so just because I happen to not be homophobic myself. Gay people, as with anyone I think, have to accept that some people are not going to be OK with what they do: some people are not okay with some of my life choices and I have to accept that. I think the line to be drawn is when you become offensive about your homophobia. Accepting that people are different from you, and respecting their freedom to be different, even if you personally cannot understand homosexuality, is the right way forward. Going around telling people they make you sick simply because they are homosexual is not okay. There's a proper manner, I think, in how you deal with your difference in opinion and that's where the line between a sort of "acceptable" homophobia and a completely unacceptable attitude lies.
Reply 84
Original post by thesabbath
Because a marriage is between a man and a woman. So why should this arrangement have the same name?


The definition of marriage has been changed before, yet it has kept the same name. When interracial marriage was introduced, was there 'interracial marriage' and 'marriage'?
I love how you try to make yourself sound reasonable using an extreme example. "I'd stop them from being beaten to death"............ so what?, all that says is that you're not a complete sociopath. Even many racists wouldn't stand by and watch someone of another race being beaten to death, but that sill doesn't mean they aren't racist. Equally your analogy leads to the same conclusion.
Original post by Jophesxi
The definition of marriage has been changed before, yet it has kept the same name. When interracial marriage was introduced, was there 'interracial marriage' and 'marriage'?


Can you explain why you think this is the same? Any laws preventing those of different races from marrying would take place in a wider context of legal apartheid and not affect the understanding of what a marriage is.
Reply 87
With very few exceptions, I'm reading genuine homophobia on this thread. Has it occurred to you naysayers that not everyone is you? As a gay man, I am deeply offended when someone says "it makes me sick" at the idea of gay adoption/parenting. I imagine, in that case, you'd rather they remained in foster care or simply foundlings? In the instances where I have witnessed gay adoption and gay parenthood, I remark at the energy that's involved with both parents who seem equally invested in the well-being of their child. What's so "sickening" about that? Would that most unwanted heterosexuals dropping babies like litters had that sort of investment! It's a brand new and inclusive world out there folks, and a generation from now, people who look back on views like those expressed here will shake their heads, dumbfounded at the ignorance homophobia represented in this day. We're all made better for our differences than our similarities. ... and oh yes, then of course there's that thing little thing called The Bill of Rights which guarantees equal rights and opportunity to ALL Americans, not just white, small-minded, heterosexual, threatened ones. I suggest you adjust your thinking for "the times they are a changin'" and there's not one thing you can do about it. Were some mad scientist to invent a "go hetero" pill, I'd not take it for all the tea in China. Being homosexual/gay is an integral part of who I am and I thank God daily he made me that way.
Original post by thesabbath
Because a marriage is between a man and a woman. So why should this arrangement have the same name?


Well no marriage is now a union between two people no matter their sex.
Original post by Dr Alcoholic
Well no marriage is now a union between two people no matter their sex.


Yes and 2 + 2 = 5

I love Big Brother
Reply 90
Original post by thesabbath
Can you explain why you think this is the same? Any laws preventing those of different races from marrying would take place in a wider context of legal apartheid and not affect the understanding of what a marriage is.


I make a link between the two because both were, in the past, not legally recognized/didn't exist. It did affect the understanding of marriage because the definition itself was changed, as was marriage.
Original post by thesabbath
Yes and 2 + 2 = 5

I love Big Brother



No I can confirm 2 + 2 = 4.
Reply 92
Original post by thesabbath
Because a marriage is between a man and a woman. So why should this arrangement have the same name?


According to whom? You? Religion has no patent on the word marriage. It was originally used to join people in the name of property rights (even slaves) in the same family. It was not a religious rite. It had no religious context as originally used. It was simply a joining and Christians who'd put their stamp on it today as "theirs" have no right to do so.
Reply 93
Original post by thesabbath
Won't last because your sort are too intolerant towards those that don't share your views. Rip out all those "protected characteristics" from the cultural Marxist "equality" laws and see how popular this stuff is without the authoritarian State's muscle behind it.


You're seriously misunderstanding the principles of Marxism; I had to laugh!

I think our liberal democracy will outlive any of us, unfortunately for you.


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Original post by thesabbath
Because a marriage is between a man and a woman. So why should this arrangement have the same name?


There is no one definition of marriage. Every country and religion has different marriage laws and definitions of marriage, so you cannot simply state that "marriage is between a man and a woman" without qualifying where you are drawing your definition from. Please give me your exact definition, clarifying;

Is it between a man and a woman, or is polygamy fair game to you?
Can transsexuals marry?
Can atheists marry?
Can impotent people marry?

I guarantee you that your definition of marriage will be at odds with others. I see no way to objectively judge one as more correct than another.

Personally, as a totally heterosexual atheist, socially progressive libertarian and LGBT Rights supporter, I view marriage as a declaration of love and commitment between two or more people; a statement of their desire to support each other through hard times and good and to create a loving environment together for each other.

Don't tell me that my view of marriage is inferior to yours, just because they are different. When I get married it will be one of the most meaningful and important days of my life. I think anybody should be able to share this with a person they love, providing the other person consents.
Reply 95
Original post by Rascacielos
You're homophobic, there's no doubt about it, but I'm not going to jump on your back and tell you to stop being so just because I happen to not be homophobic myself. Gay people, as with anyone I think, have to accept that some people are not going to be OK with what they do: some people are not okay with some of my life choices and I have to accept that. I think the line to be drawn is when you become offensive about your homophobia. Accepting that people are different from you, and respecting their freedom to be different, even if you personally cannot understand homosexuality, is the right way forward. Going around telling people they make you sick simply because they are homosexual is not okay. There's a proper manner, I think, in how you deal with your difference in opinion and that's where the line between a sort of "acceptable" homophobia and a completely unacceptable attitude lies.
I appreciate your post except for when you refer to homosexuality as "being a choice". Since I'm a homosexual man, I can assure you it's not. Most of the naysaying comes from two places, 1) old people who can't live by anything but that which they learned at a parent or a clergyman's knee, and 2) several out of context passages taken from Leviticus in the Old Testament. Of course these same people neglect the verse nearby in Leviticus which states that "eating shellfish is an abomination to God". Then, of course, there are the multi-passages in the Bible which instruct the owner how to handle and distribute his slaves! In my view, fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible is at the root of such sociopathic thinking.
Reply 96
Original post by KingStannis
The guy clearly isn't homophobic; he is against gay marraige, and finds homosexual acts digusting. Neither of those two are homophobic.

So many stupid opinions on this thread.
They certainly COULD be given the "reasoning" (term used loosely) behind the sentiments! You need to realize that to many (and I realize you know the difference) the word "homophobia" has come to have a broader meaning than simply "the fear of". It's come to include the disapproval and disapproving judgment of homosexuals too. Take that into consideration before you start calling people "stupid".
Original post by arcturus7
There is no one definition of marriage. Every country and religion has different marriage laws and definitions of marriage, so you cannot simply state that "marriage is between a man and a woman" without qualifying where you are drawing your definition from. Please give me your exact definition, clarifying;

Is it between a man and a woman, or is polygamy fair game to you?
Can transsexuals marry?
Can atheists marry?
Can impotent people marry?

I guarantee you that your definition of marriage will be at odds with others. I see no way to objectively judge one as more correct than another.

Personally, as a totally heterosexual atheist, socially progressive libertarian and LGBT Rights supporter, I view marriage as a declaration of love and commitment between two or more people; a statement of their desire to support each other through hard times and good and to create a loving environment together for each other.

Don't tell me that my view of marriage is inferior to yours, just because they are different. When I get married it will be one of the most meaningful and important days of my life. I think anybody should be able to share this with a person they love, providing the other person consents.


Yeah whatever man, groovy

Now it's been redefined as such I happen to agree.

Open it up to as many people or things as possible, and lets hurry up and finish Western Civilisation off so we can all get along and share the love.
Original post by Dr Alcoholic
No I can confirm 2 + 2 = 4.


bigot
racist
homophobe
Original post by Abdul-Karim
I don't support gays, men are meant to go with women.


Humans are meant to die of dysentery.

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