The Student Room Group

Cantor's theorem

In the proof that S<P(S)|S| < |\mathcal P({S})|, the set {xSxf(x)}\{x \in S|x \notin f(x)\}, where f:SP(S)f: S \rightarrow \mathcal P(S) is used.

I understand the method and all, but how can you ensure such a set exists in the first place? During the construction of such a function can't you make sure that xxf(x)P(S)x \mapsto x \in f(x) \subseteq \mathcal P(S) and thus ensure that {xSxf(x)}=\{x \in S|x \notin f(x)\} = \emptyset? If you were to say a set definitely must exist, then aren't you straightout claiming that the cardinality of P(S)\mathcal P(S) must be greater?

Sorry, I'm just really confused about this at the moment.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 1
Original post by 0x2a
In the proof that S<P(S)|S| < |\mathcal P({S})|, the set {xSxf(x)}\{x \in S|x \notin f(x)\}, where f:SP(S)f: S \rightarrow \mathcal P(S) is used.

I understand the method and all, but how can you ensure such a set exists in the first place? During the construction of such a function can't you make sure that xxf(x)P(S)x \mapsto x \in f(x) \subseteq \mathcal P(S) and thus ensure that {xSxf(x)}=\{x \in S|x \notin f(x)\} = \emptyset? If you were to say a set definitely must exist, then aren't you straightout claiming that the cardinality of P(S)\mathcal P(S) must be greater?

Sorry, I'm just really confused about this at the moment.


The empty set exists, and being the empty set does not cause a problem.
You can ensure it is empty. It doesn't matter.

Firstly, the set exists because it is well defined (so long as SS and ff are well defined).

Secondly, here's an example to show it doesn't matter if that set is empty. Let's look at the set S={1}S=\{1\}. Then P(S)={,{1}}\mathcal{P}(S) = \{\emptyset, \{1\}\}

Take f:SP(S),1{1}f: S\mapsto \mathcal{P}(S), 1 \mapsto \{1\}. Then now of course {xS:x∉f(x)}=\{x\in S : x\not\in f(x) \} = \emptyset. But what in S is left to map to the empty set!? If the situation were different, and we mapped 1 to the empty set instead; then {1}\{1\} would have no preimage under f.

The clinch of the proof is that for this set, if it somehow did have a preimage, then the elements in its preimage will cause contradictions about memeberships. That's what makes the proof so clever. Cantor spotted a well defined subset of a set under any map to the power set, which can't have a preimage.
Reply 3
Original post by james22
The empty set exists, and being the empty set does not cause a problem.


Original post by FireGarden
You can ensure it is empty. It doesn't matter.

Firstly, the set exists because it is well defined (so long as SS and ff are well defined).

Secondly, here's an example to show it doesn't matter if that set is empty. Let's look at the set S={1}S=\{1\}. Then P(S)={,{1}}\mathcal{P}(S) = \{\emptyset, \{1\}\}

Take f:SP(S),1{1}f: S\mapsto \mathcal{P}(S), 1 \mapsto \{1\}. Then now of course {xS:x∉f(x)}=\{x\in S : x\not\in f(x) \} = \emptyset. But what in S is left to map to the empty set!? If the situation were different, and we mapped 1 to the empty set instead; then {1}\{1\} would have no preimage under f.

The clinch of the proof is that for this set, if it somehow did have a preimage, then the elements in its preimage will cause contradictions about memeberships. That's what makes the proof so clever. Cantor spotted a well defined subset of a set under any map to the power set, which can't have a preimage.

Ah of course, it can map to the empty set :facepalm:

Thank you :smile:

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