Whats the point trying to achieve when Labour just want to tax?
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Original post by voiceofreason234
Hey OP, I moved abroad, so will never pay back a penny of my student loan (even though I could afford to do so), and I made sure to not pay back my student overdraft and max out my credit card before leaving too. When those banks need another bailout, or when the government taxes you to pay for more education, just know it's because of guys like me, rubbing your tax money on our titties.
You mad?
You mad?
Not really because you probably work as a club rep in Bali..... congrats mate.
Original post by billydisco
Not really because you probably work as a club rep in Bali..... congrats mate.
Don't worry bro. Your money is in my back pocket, and tomorrow I'll be nailing yet another girl. Enjoy your 'high stress' job paying money to 'the man'. Always makes me break out in a big smile when I read about guys like you obsessing oer their tax bills, knowing that I've taken more from the system than I've paid in. In the word of Kevin Keegan - loving it!!
Original post by billydisco
Not really because you probably work as a club rep in Bali..... congrats mate.
Original post by voiceofreason234
Demand side reporting in. Infact, I love it so much, I even moved to SEA primarily for the bargirls.
SEA = South East Asia
Pretty ****ing smart, arent I?
Original post by billydisco
SEA = South East Asia
Pretty ****ing smart, arent I?
Pretty ****ing smart, arent I?
No you're not bro, otherwise you'd be taking from the system rather than paying the money in.
If some people get to sit and watch Eastenders while you sit in your office in a 'high stress' job, paying the money so they can continue watching Eastenders...who's the stupid one, really?
Original post by billydisco
I am saying a low tax is expected, but the amount which is currently taken is theft.
I could go and work in Switzerland or Dubai if I wanted where there's low tax, but it makes me think how bad public services would be and it would be TOO capitalist for my liking.
I'd just rather this country taxed the wealthy less and stopped pissing-away money so easily.
I could go and work in Switzerland or Dubai if I wanted where there's low tax, but it makes me think how bad public services would be and it would be TOO capitalist for my liking.
I'd just rather this country taxed the wealthy less and stopped pissing-away money so easily.
I see what you're saying to an extent but you can't draw a line that thinly. You can't say 'x amount is not theft, but x plus 1 is theft'. If tax is theft then all tax is theft, there are no gradations of the meaning of theft. Theft is theft.
So when does tax become theft?
Also you haven't addressed my point about who you would vote for or the fact that the Tories have taxed more than Labour did in their 13 years...
Please respond to those points.
And you talk about pissing away money, we'd have a lot more of it if we weren't so lax on tax avoiders.
BD,
Part of the reason you're so difficult to have a debate with is because this whole thread you have constantly changed, updated and altered your argument. You have also gone off on so many tangents it's incredibly difficult to keep up or actually know what you're point is or what you're arguing for against so I'll go through it methodically.
I won't resort to name calling or petty insults and would appreciate it if you did the same but I aim to respond to the points you've made.
1.) The thread title question
Well the title and the initial question is 'What's the point in trying to achieve when Labour just want to tax?'
Initially it's clearly a party political dig but EVERY party wants to tax. I'm not sure who you vote for, you seem far too right wing for even the Tories (not a dig, just an observation) with your views on immigration, benefits, public services etc. I'd guess UKIP. But whoever you vote for, they want tax. In fact as I've mentioned several times, the top rate of tax under this Tory government is HIGHER THAN IT WAS FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE LAST LABOUR GOVERNMENT.
So I'm not sure what your point is here, every party wants to tax and the Conservatives tax almost as much as Labour. Why pick Labour out and not include the Tories. It's the Tories who've been taking your hard earned money the last 5 years, not Labour, why not have a go at them?
You then argued that taxation is theft? Yet argued a little taxation isn't. That makes no sense by any logic. If taxation is theft (which it isn't by ANY definition of the word) then ALL taxation must be theft. Yet you support the Tories/UKIP who both want to tax, who both want to 'steal'. And then you said low taxation isn't theft. Well how low? Anything over £31,860 - 150,000 is taxed at 40% under a CONSERVATIVE led government. Does 40% not count as tax? So it's the Conservatives who are 'stealing' your money not Labour.
UKIPs proposal for this tax bracket is 35%. So is this not theft? Labours proposal is 40%, THE SAME AS THE TORIES for this tax bracket.
So is 35% not theft but 40% is. Why have you picked out Labour when they don't plan to tax anymore than the Conservatives for the huge majority of people. At most they'd increase the current 45% tax rate for the top earners to 50%, hardly a monumental amount more. And again is 45% not theft but 50% is.
So to answer the first part of the title question, every party wants to tax, the tories want to tax either as much as Labour or nearly as much and UKIP only 5% less.
Hardly huge differences.
So which party do you vote for then?
2.) the 'what's the point' bit
Well as previously mentioned,it will always, always, always be the case that the more you earn the more you keep. You then went on to give an analogy of 'what if tax rate was 99%'? Well it isn't, it never has been and never will be and Labour are proposing 50% , only 5% higher than what the Tories are.
So you're telling me you wouldn't be motivated to earn more if it was a 50% tax rate above £150,000 but would be hugely motivated with 45%?
There are more points to respond to later, but why do you let the Tories off the hook when by your own standards they are as bad if not worse than Labour in terms of tax they take from you.
Part of the reason you're so difficult to have a debate with is because this whole thread you have constantly changed, updated and altered your argument. You have also gone off on so many tangents it's incredibly difficult to keep up or actually know what you're point is or what you're arguing for against so I'll go through it methodically.
I won't resort to name calling or petty insults and would appreciate it if you did the same but I aim to respond to the points you've made.
1.) The thread title question
Well the title and the initial question is 'What's the point in trying to achieve when Labour just want to tax?'
Initially it's clearly a party political dig but EVERY party wants to tax. I'm not sure who you vote for, you seem far too right wing for even the Tories (not a dig, just an observation) with your views on immigration, benefits, public services etc. I'd guess UKIP. But whoever you vote for, they want tax. In fact as I've mentioned several times, the top rate of tax under this Tory government is HIGHER THAN IT WAS FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE LAST LABOUR GOVERNMENT.
So I'm not sure what your point is here, every party wants to tax and the Conservatives tax almost as much as Labour. Why pick Labour out and not include the Tories. It's the Tories who've been taking your hard earned money the last 5 years, not Labour, why not have a go at them?
You then argued that taxation is theft? Yet argued a little taxation isn't. That makes no sense by any logic. If taxation is theft (which it isn't by ANY definition of the word) then ALL taxation must be theft. Yet you support the Tories/UKIP who both want to tax, who both want to 'steal'. And then you said low taxation isn't theft. Well how low? Anything over £31,860 - 150,000 is taxed at 40% under a CONSERVATIVE led government. Does 40% not count as tax? So it's the Conservatives who are 'stealing' your money not Labour.
UKIPs proposal for this tax bracket is 35%. So is this not theft? Labours proposal is 40%, THE SAME AS THE TORIES for this tax bracket.
So is 35% not theft but 40% is. Why have you picked out Labour when they don't plan to tax anymore than the Conservatives for the huge majority of people. At most they'd increase the current 45% tax rate for the top earners to 50%, hardly a monumental amount more. And again is 45% not theft but 50% is.
So to answer the first part of the title question, every party wants to tax, the tories want to tax either as much as Labour or nearly as much and UKIP only 5% less.
Hardly huge differences.
So which party do you vote for then?
2.) the 'what's the point' bit
Well as previously mentioned,it will always, always, always be the case that the more you earn the more you keep. You then went on to give an analogy of 'what if tax rate was 99%'? Well it isn't, it never has been and never will be and Labour are proposing 50% , only 5% higher than what the Tories are.
So you're telling me you wouldn't be motivated to earn more if it was a 50% tax rate above £150,000 but would be hugely motivated with 45%?
There are more points to respond to later, but why do you let the Tories off the hook when by your own standards they are as bad if not worse than Labour in terms of tax they take from you.
Original post by Bornblue
Which party will you be voting for?
The Tories are too pro-EU with Cameron in charge and UKIP are too right-wing for me (I believe in gay marriage).
I would say my ideal party would be a Conservative one full of David Davies-types, rather than Cameron and Ken Clarke (biggest **** ever, swear hes a socialist empathiser).
Original post by voiceofreason234
If some people get to sit and watch Eastenders while you sit in your office in a 'high stress' job, paying the money so they can continue watching Eastenders...who's the stupid one, really?
Why would I want to sit indoors all day, watching eastenders?
Original post by Bornblue
BD,
Part of the reason you're so difficult to have a debate with is because this whole thread you have constantly changed, updated and altered your argument. You have also gone off on so many tangents it's incredibly difficult to keep up or actually know what you're point is or what you're arguing for against so I'll go through it methodically.
I won't resort to name calling or petty insults and would appreciate it if you did the same but I aim to respond to the points you've made.
1.) The thread title question
Well the title and the initial question is 'What's the point in trying to achieve when Labour just want to tax?'
Initially it's clearly a party political dig but EVERY party wants to tax. I'm not sure who you vote for, you seem far too right wing for even the Tories (not a dig, just an observation) with your views on immigration, benefits, public services etc. I'd guess UKIP. But whoever you vote for, they want tax. In fact as I've mentioned several times, the top rate of tax under this Tory government is HIGHER THAN IT WAS FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE LAST LABOUR GOVERNMENT.
So I'm not sure what your point is here, every party wants to tax and the Conservatives tax almost as much as Labour. Why pick Labour out and not include the Tories. It's the Tories who've been taking your hard earned money the last 5 years, not Labour, why not have a go at them?
You then argued that taxation is theft? Yet argued a little taxation isn't. That makes no sense by any logic. If taxation is theft (which it isn't by ANY definition of the word) then ALL taxation must be theft. Yet you support the Tories/UKIP who both want to tax, who both want to 'steal'. And then you said low taxation isn't theft. Well how low? Anything over £31,860 - 150,000 is taxed at 40% under a CONSERVATIVE led government. Does 40% not count as tax? So it's the Conservatives who are 'stealing' your money not Labour.
UKIPs proposal for this tax bracket is 35%. So is this not theft? Labours proposal is 40%, THE SAME AS THE TORIES for this tax bracket.
So is 35% not theft but 40% is. Why have you picked out Labour when they don't plan to tax anymore than the Conservatives for the huge majority of people. At most they'd increase the current 45% tax rate for the top earners to 50%, hardly a monumental amount more. And again is 45% not theft but 50% is.
So to answer the first part of the title question, every party wants to tax, the tories want to tax either as much as Labour or nearly as much and UKIP only 5% less.
Hardly huge differences.
So which party do you vote for then?
2.) the 'what's the point' bit
Well as previously mentioned,it will always, always, always be the case that the more you earn the more you keep. You then went on to give an analogy of 'what if tax rate was 99%'? Well it isn't, it never has been and never will be and Labour are proposing 50% , only 5% higher than what the Tories are.
So you're telling me you wouldn't be motivated to earn more if it was a 50% tax rate above £150,000 but would be hugely motivated with 45%?
There are more points to respond to later, but why do you let the Tories off the hook when by your own standards they are as bad if not worse than Labour in terms of tax they take from you.
Part of the reason you're so difficult to have a debate with is because this whole thread you have constantly changed, updated and altered your argument. You have also gone off on so many tangents it's incredibly difficult to keep up or actually know what you're point is or what you're arguing for against so I'll go through it methodically.
I won't resort to name calling or petty insults and would appreciate it if you did the same but I aim to respond to the points you've made.
1.) The thread title question
Well the title and the initial question is 'What's the point in trying to achieve when Labour just want to tax?'
Initially it's clearly a party political dig but EVERY party wants to tax. I'm not sure who you vote for, you seem far too right wing for even the Tories (not a dig, just an observation) with your views on immigration, benefits, public services etc. I'd guess UKIP. But whoever you vote for, they want tax. In fact as I've mentioned several times, the top rate of tax under this Tory government is HIGHER THAN IT WAS FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE LAST LABOUR GOVERNMENT.
So I'm not sure what your point is here, every party wants to tax and the Conservatives tax almost as much as Labour. Why pick Labour out and not include the Tories. It's the Tories who've been taking your hard earned money the last 5 years, not Labour, why not have a go at them?
You then argued that taxation is theft? Yet argued a little taxation isn't. That makes no sense by any logic. If taxation is theft (which it isn't by ANY definition of the word) then ALL taxation must be theft. Yet you support the Tories/UKIP who both want to tax, who both want to 'steal'. And then you said low taxation isn't theft. Well how low? Anything over £31,860 - 150,000 is taxed at 40% under a CONSERVATIVE led government. Does 40% not count as tax? So it's the Conservatives who are 'stealing' your money not Labour.
UKIPs proposal for this tax bracket is 35%. So is this not theft? Labours proposal is 40%, THE SAME AS THE TORIES for this tax bracket.
So is 35% not theft but 40% is. Why have you picked out Labour when they don't plan to tax anymore than the Conservatives for the huge majority of people. At most they'd increase the current 45% tax rate for the top earners to 50%, hardly a monumental amount more. And again is 45% not theft but 50% is.
So to answer the first part of the title question, every party wants to tax, the tories want to tax either as much as Labour or nearly as much and UKIP only 5% less.
Hardly huge differences.
So which party do you vote for then?
2.) the 'what's the point' bit
Well as previously mentioned,it will always, always, always be the case that the more you earn the more you keep. You then went on to give an analogy of 'what if tax rate was 99%'? Well it isn't, it never has been and never will be and Labour are proposing 50% , only 5% higher than what the Tories are.
So you're telling me you wouldn't be motivated to earn more if it was a 50% tax rate above £150,000 but would be hugely motivated with 45%?
There are more points to respond to later, but why do you let the Tories off the hook when by your own standards they are as bad if not worse than Labour in terms of tax they take from you.
Oh come on, you're not stupid (I hope?)
1) just want to tax..... so much.
2) I have already answered this, there are diminishing returns. The amount of reward is not proportional to the effort required getting the job paying 52% in tax after every £ earnt (£150k+).
Original post by billydisco
Why would I want to sit indoors all day, watching eastenders?
You wouldn't.
And not doing so is just another (non-monetary) benefit to your working.
So not only are you financially better off, you are also a happier person - and good mental health is priceless.
Original post by billydisco
Oh come on, you're not stupid (I hope?)
1) just want to tax..... so much.
2) I have already answered this, there are diminishing returns. The amount of reward is not proportional to the effort required getting the job paying 52% in tax after every £ earnt (£150k+).
1) just want to tax..... so much.
2) I have already answered this, there are diminishing returns. The amount of reward is not proportional to the effort required getting the job paying 52% in tax after every £ earnt (£150k+).
But as I've pointed out to you, the Tories tax AS MUCH as Labour. If not more than the last Labour government. So why pick out Labour when it's the Tories who have been taking your money?
If you earn 150k, you can afford to pay more tax and still have an exceptionally comfortable lifestyle. Giving back to society isn't a bad thing.
Having a high paid job does not necessarily require more effort than having a low paid one.
Take the footballer example. They work 9-1, get the rest of the day off and play a game at the weekend before going back to their mansion. Compare that to someone working 60 hours a week and two jobs to support their family.
The way you get a deficit down is a combination of increasing taxes and cutting public spending.
The Tories believe it should only be done by cutting public spending and decreasing taxes.
It is brutally obvious that the Tories want the poor to suffer while the wealthy gain better standards of living year on year.
The real joke is people on TSR defending the Tories policies and insisting the poor should get every negative thing that is coming to them.
But we aren't listening.
For the Tories here you may as well do a Chris Crocker Leave Britney Alone video on youtube. Instead of Leave Britney Alone it can be Leave the Bankers alone!
Oh and include the line "Gimmie Gimmie More Attention" from the remix song below lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IkEhtI3VEY
The Tories believe it should only be done by cutting public spending and decreasing taxes.
It is brutally obvious that the Tories want the poor to suffer while the wealthy gain better standards of living year on year.
The real joke is people on TSR defending the Tories policies and insisting the poor should get every negative thing that is coming to them.
But we aren't listening.
For the Tories here you may as well do a Chris Crocker Leave Britney Alone video on youtube. Instead of Leave Britney Alone it can be Leave the Bankers alone!
Oh and include the line "Gimmie Gimmie More Attention" from the remix song below lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IkEhtI3VEY
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Bornblue
But as I've pointed out to you, the Tories tax AS MUCH as Labour. If not more than the last Labour government. So why pick out Labour when it's the Tories who have been taking your money?
If you earn 150k, you can afford to pay more tax and still have an exceptionally comfortable lifestyle. Giving back to society isn't a bad thing.
Having a high paid job does not necessarily require more effort than having a low paid one.
Take the footballer example. They work 9-1, get the rest of the day off and play a game at the weekend before going back to their mansion. Compare that to someone working 60 hours a week and two jobs to support their family.
If you earn 150k, you can afford to pay more tax and still have an exceptionally comfortable lifestyle. Giving back to society isn't a bad thing.
Having a high paid job does not necessarily require more effort than having a low paid one.
Take the footballer example. They work 9-1, get the rest of the day off and play a game at the weekend before going back to their mansion. Compare that to someone working 60 hours a week and two jobs to support their family.
How can the Tories tax as much as Labour when you moan that the Tories reduced the 50p tax rate to 45p and want to reduce it back to 40p???
Original post by illegaltobepoor
The way you get a deficit down is a combination of increasing taxes and cutting public spending.
The Tories believe it should only be done by cutting public spending and decreasing taxes.
It is brutally obvious that the Tories want the poor to suffer while the wealthy gain better standards of living year on year.
The real joke is people on TSR defending the Tories policies and insisting the poor should get every negative thing that is coming to them.
But we aren't listening.
For the Tories here you may as well do a Chris Crocker Leave Britney Alone video on youtube. Instead of Leave Britney Alone it can be Leave the Bankers alone!
Oh and include the line "Gimmie Gimmie More Attention" from the remix song below lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IkEhtI3VEY
The Tories believe it should only be done by cutting public spending and decreasing taxes.
It is brutally obvious that the Tories want the poor to suffer while the wealthy gain better standards of living year on year.
The real joke is people on TSR defending the Tories policies and insisting the poor should get every negative thing that is coming to them.
But we aren't listening.
For the Tories here you may as well do a Chris Crocker Leave Britney Alone video on youtube. Instead of Leave Britney Alone it can be Leave the Bankers alone!
Oh and include the line "Gimmie Gimmie More Attention" from the remix song below lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IkEhtI3VEY
So you want poor people's taxes to go up?
Original post by billydisco
How can the Tories tax as much as Labour when you moan that the Tories reduced the 50p tax rate to 45p and want to reduce it back to 40p???
For the large majority of the last Labour government the top rate of tax was 40%, they upped it near the end to 50% as the election neared, knowing the Tories would bring it down and using it as a stick to hit them with. Yet the Tories reduced it to 45%, 5% higher than it was for the vast majority of the 13 years of Labour.
The Tories have been 'stealing' your money the last 5 years not Labour.
And even if Labour do raise it back to 50%, I find it hard to believe 45% tax will motivate you, but 50% won't at all.
So again, the Tories have taxed just as much if not more than the last Labour government, so why moan about Labour and not the party who's actually been taking your hard earned money?
(edited 9 years ago)
I really wouldn't bother listening to wealthy people whine about their tax rates because they have been enjoying a tax rate decline ever since 1980 at 90% to 45% at this present day. Its only until Gordon Brown put their taxes up from 40% to 50% which made the rich go haywire.
See source here.
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capital21c/en/pdf/F14.1.pdf
Its interesting that the gap of wealth between rich and poor really started to increase when Margret Thatcher came into Government in 1979.
So the evidence can't be more true. A decrease in taxes of the highest earners makes the poor poorer!
I'd really love to find some charts of the gap between rich and poor from 1940 to 2015. That would make my day. So if you want to help out do exactly that.
A article published by the Guardian in Dec 2014 really sums up my points.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/09/revealed-wealth-gap-oecd-report
The supposed West's leading think tank the Organisation for Economic Cooperation & Development said the following:
"The OECD said that the richest 10% of the population now earned 9.5 times the income of the poorest 10%, up from seven times in the 1980s. However, the result had been slower, not faster, growth. "
See source here.
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capital21c/en/pdf/F14.1.pdf
Its interesting that the gap of wealth between rich and poor really started to increase when Margret Thatcher came into Government in 1979.
So the evidence can't be more true. A decrease in taxes of the highest earners makes the poor poorer!
I'd really love to find some charts of the gap between rich and poor from 1940 to 2015. That would make my day. So if you want to help out do exactly that.
A article published by the Guardian in Dec 2014 really sums up my points.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/09/revealed-wealth-gap-oecd-report
The supposed West's leading think tank the Organisation for Economic Cooperation & Development said the following:
"The OECD said that the richest 10% of the population now earned 9.5 times the income of the poorest 10%, up from seven times in the 1980s. However, the result had been slower, not faster, growth. "
Original post by Bornblue
For the large majority of the last Labour government the top rate of tax was 40%, they upped it near the end to 50% as the election neared, knowing the Tories would bring it down and using it as a stick to hit them with. Yet the Tories reduced it to 45%, 5% higher than it was for the vast majority of the 13 years of Labour.
The Tories have been 'stealing' your money the last 5 years not Labour.
And even if Labour do raise it back to 50%, I find it hard to believe 45% tax will motivate you, but 50% won't at all.
So again, the Tories have taxed just as much if not more than the last Labour government, so why moan about Labour and not the party who's actually been taking your hard earned money?
The Tories have been 'stealing' your money the last 5 years not Labour.
And even if Labour do raise it back to 50%, I find it hard to believe 45% tax will motivate you, but 50% won't at all.
So again, the Tories have taxed just as much if not more than the last Labour government, so why moan about Labour and not the party who's actually been taking your hard earned money?
The rich has been enjoying a decline of tax rates since the 1980s from 90% to 40%. Suddenly Labour rises the rate to 50% and Tories lower it to 45% and the rich are scream unfair!
In 1971 the top rate of income tax on earned income was cut to 75%. A surcharge of 15% kept the top rate on investment income at 90%.In 1974 the cut was partly reversed and the top rate on earned income was raised to 83%. With the investment income surcharge this raised the top rate on investment income to 98%, the highest permanent rate since the war. This applied to incomes over £20,000 (£181,858 as of 2015),[7]. In 1974 750,000 people were liable to pay the top-rate of income tax.[16]
Margaret Thatcher, who favoured indirect taxation, reduced personal income tax rates during the 1980s.[17] In the first budget after her election victory in 1979, the top rate was reduced from 83% to 60% and the basic rate from 33% to 30%.[18] The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets - to 29% in the 1986 budget, 27% in 1987 and to 25% in 1988.[19] The top rate of income tax was cut to 40% in the 1988 budget. The investment income surcharge was abolished in 1985.
Source: Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom
Now since Neo-Liberalism, Neo-Conservative and Trickle Down Economics has failed I think we should put our top rate tax back up.
Margaret Thatcher, who favoured indirect taxation, reduced personal income tax rates during the 1980s.[17] In the first budget after her election victory in 1979, the top rate was reduced from 83% to 60% and the basic rate from 33% to 30%.[18] The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets - to 29% in the 1986 budget, 27% in 1987 and to 25% in 1988.[19] The top rate of income tax was cut to 40% in the 1988 budget. The investment income surcharge was abolished in 1985.
Source: Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom
Now since Neo-Liberalism, Neo-Conservative and Trickle Down Economics has failed I think we should put our top rate tax back up.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by billydisco
So you want poor people's taxes to go up?
Only if the rich taxes go back up to 83%
Tax needs to go up in all bands. We can't just make life hard for the poor. We need a patriotic effort by everyone contributing their fair share to get the deficit & national debt down!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by billydisco
Well there's your answer? Why should we all pay because of these short-term idiots?
I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor
This is the point why very few people who are born in poverty can go out and achieve their goals. They will never not be poor so what is the point of trying to be well - off.
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