The veil

So fines aren't a deterrent because people still speed? What sort of logic is that?

And it's pretty difficult to not get caught wearing a Niqab, it's fairly obvious to those around you. Wear it long enough you will be caught, and unless you're a millionaire you will eventually get tired of losing a couple of thousand a year paying fines.

To suggest that if we removed fines, speeding and littering etc. wouldn't increase is ridiculous.

Because i couldn't stroll through a town center. Potentially relax outside the store i'm waiting to rob for the best opportunity in a balaclava. The police would be questioning anybody with any of those, other than a Niqab. Hence robberies in them are going up.

What kind of wall responds back. None. Therefore either the employer has gone mad or is actually talking to a person.

Isn't the purpose of the Niqaab so that the person wearing it is usually given the choice whether to initiate a conversation?

Fines are not a deterrent and if you think they are, you are deluded.

How many bobbies are on the beat in Britain today? Do you not think they have more important jobs to do than go around handing out fines?

Do you really think the tubby police officer will chase after people in order to fine them?

If stabbings through kitchen knives go up, will you advocate the total ban on knives?

People use their hands to commit crimes (assault, GBH, theft - any crime in fact). What are you going to do to stop these crimes? Chop their hands off?

Hmm, not actually a bad idea you've cottoned onto...

Of course they are, and if you think they aren't you are deluded.
No punishment works 100%, people still murder in countries they know they will get the death penalty. But like said i'm sure if we removed fines from certain offences, people would obviously commit them more. Seems simple.

Well i can rarely walk into my town center without seeing a couple, so it would keep it away from busy area's. I hardly think people are suggesting a Niqab patrol, but 5 minutes to write a fine is going to waste all the police time resources?

Yes because i'm sure the women in Niqab's are going to leg it everytime a police officer spots them. Lets not even bother enforcing punishments on any minor offences then so long as the person runs off.

And yes, he can slap a resisting/evading arrest charge on top if they do try run.

Of course not, people might find it difficult to cut their vegetables with a spoon. It has a purpose in our everyday life.

I'm not even 100% sure what you are even talking about here? When did i mention anything even close to chopping people's hands off or even assaults? You've got so off topic you've not even mentioned the Niqab in that whole post, which is what i was talking about.

Fines only work where someone is actively monitoring. If no-one is there to monitor, who will hand out the fines? If there are no speed cameras, who will fine the speeding driver? If there are no litter wardens, who will fine the litterers?

What if the Niqaab person simply uncovers her face, walks past the police and drops it down over her face again? It will then turn into, "I saw her...she's lying"...

Sorry to burst your bubble but the police have thought of that idea already, and went with it.

I'm simply musing there that if people use the Niqaab to commit crimes, which was one of the arguments I think, then it's just a tool to perpetrate a crime, just like a hammer is, a knife or even fists and hands.

Perhaps to stop people committing crimes and deterring them, we simply chop off everyone's hands so they are deterred from committing any crimes. Good idea?

Whilst the Niqab has no purpose, British society wouldn't miss it like your examples. I couldn't walk around my town center very long in a balaclava without being stopped and rightly so, its a security risk. Seems a bit hypocritical i throw on a Niqab, the same if not a bigger effect and can be left to do what i want.

I don't get your point? We have traffic camera's?
The same way we have police officers? Sure its unlikely you would be fined everytime you left the house, but you would be spotted every now and then. If the fine is hefty enough, nobody would want to pay it.

That could be used on literally anything.
"I didn't hit him officer!"
"I didn't throw those drugs on the floor officer!"
"I didn't just racially abuse them officer!"

If they catch you, the officer's word generally wins. If you're wearing a Niqab, who are you trying to convince you aren't covering your face? Obviously your point assuming they will always spot the police before the police spot them.

Irrelevant again considering you wouldn't have to investigate if somebody was wearing a Niqab. Every major city has officers stationed in area's just patrolling, and if they spot someone wearing a Niqab it would be as difficult as spending 5 minutes to write the fine.
Hardly the same.

You're point probably made more sense when i didn't understand it.
Lets just unban everything then, guns, bombs the lot?

Or.... we could use common sense. Not ban things which actually have a use and place in society, such as knives, hammers and.....hands?

Whilst the Niqab has no purpose, British society wouldn't miss it like your examples. I couldn't walk around my town center very long in a balaclava without being stopped and rightly so, its a security risk. Seems a bit hypocritical i throw on a Niqab, the same if not a bigger effect and can be left to do what i want.

I think you mean speed cameras, which are usually in fixed places so it can be easily avoided.

How much would you say would an appropriate fine be?

There's just too many if's here.

If they see you, if they catch you, if they want to fine you...

The point was about police time and resources and why they don't concentrate on the more important offences.

Very good. You've hit the nail on the head.

Whilst the Niqaab may be used for nefarious purposes, it's original intention, by the makers and those who wear it, is not nefarious, just like knives, hammers and....hands?

On the other hand, guns and bombs are intentionally designed to kill/maim.

What reason would you have for wearing a balaclava in the middle of the street?

How many people have you seen robbing a shop in a niqab?

How many more have you seen with people wearing balaclavas?

Fundamental misunderstanding; most robbers, looters, whatever, are male. The niqab is only worn by women. Unless you were conducting a heist entirely silently, which would be nigh-on impossible, anyone would be able to tell immediately that you're not a woman before you've even tried to do anything. This is leaving out the fact that you'd have to be wearing various prosthetics to make you look more womanly.

It's just a stupid argument that you're making, really.

There are many reasons to dislike the veil:

1. Security risk
2. Very rude and makes communication difficult
3. Looks stupid
4. Based on the presumption that a woman is a man's property to be jealously guarded

I view disliking the veil as an entirely reasonable position to have.

Couple hundred £ people won't want to be paying on a regular basis.

Once again this applies to every crime. And i can't see why the wouldn't want to fine you, they don't let you get away with anything else.

And my point is officers do this thing called a "patrol". They are investigating and looking for nothing in particular.
If they are just stood around a city center (which they often are), and spot someone in a Niqab. Its hardly diverting resources, potentially generating more in fines.

An actual use, you're examples were tools. Personally i don't think safety should be compromised for anything unless it has to be.

We can't live without tools, the Niqab on the other hand? Especially in Britain.

I might just be cold? Or do i even need one, i'm sure if a Muslim wearing a Niqab explained their reasoning to somebody who had never heard of religion it would make 0 sense. Why should mine need to?

I also believe in one rule for all. Not making exceptions for those who claim they follow a religion which should make them exempt from what everybody else has to follow. Nobody else can cover their face in public with deserved attention and questioning, i'm not for giving out special privileges.

I've seen 0 people robbing a shop in either. However the potential to rob a shop in a niqab is a modern concept to Britain. And would be used by the smarter criminals, they could literally sit outside the shop in it waiting for the right moment. Criminals are and will catch on though, its rising:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mmw/2013/03/rise-of-the-niqabi-criminal-balaclavas-burkas-and-bank-robberies/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8665873.stm

There are countless.

In the Niqab you can see nothing but eyes. It would be near impossible to tell the gender of the person underneath it. The only give away would really be height and bust, and there are tall women and flatchested women so that would hardly be conclusive.

Okay, when you think of a heist, do you think of someone wearing a veil? No. I have the potential to murder every single person on my street. Does that mean I will? No.

I'm talking about the sound of your voice?

Also, if you're conducting a heist wearing a full niqab, then you'll struggle to run. Or move freely.

There are many reasons to like the veil:
1.Avoid temptation from men.
2.Protects her modesty.
3.It shows that being a person isn't all about beauty and physical appearance.
4.Enhance the value and respect of women.

And if someone sets up a fund for those caught wearing the Niqaab like in France/ You'd be okay with that?

Common sense. If they see a man with a balaclava, they may stop him and give him a fine but a woman in a Niqaab with 3 kids, come on.

If you want to know what effect banning a knife would have on people, ask a chef who uses one day to day.
If you want to know what effect banning a hammer would have on people, ask a carpenter/DIY hobbyist who uses one.
Ditto for the Niqaab. Ask a Muslim woman.

She would simply say it's a personal reason and there is no need to explain it to you. Simple.

Then may I suggest you embark upon your crusade with the people who make the laws for other people because they sure as hell get a lot of special privileges.

Sure, they would run out of money eventually. Even if not, its an inconvenience and would allow officers to stop people to issue the fines.
Hence removing the security risk as they would then know who was under the Niqab,

What for, the crime of being a man and wearing a different item of clothing with the same effect? I've already stated how i feel about treating everybody equally, and not making special rules for different people.

The chef couldn't carry on with his job.
Same with the carpenter.
What exactly couldn't the Muslim woman do without her Niqab? If she chose not to do something, then she's making the decision (unless were suggesting she's being forced to wear it).

Wouldn't work for anybody else though. I've already said i don't believe in treating people differently. I couldn't tell a police officer i'm wearing this KKK uniform in the town center for a person reason, so why should they? One law to all.

I'm sure you campaign equally ferociously against positive discrimination, disabled people, LGBT and ethnic minorities.

She wouldn't walk out on the street. You're effectively supporting the marginalizing of Muslim women who wear the Niqaab.

Because of what the KKK represent. Does a Muslim woman in a Niqaab immediately scream out "robbery, theft, murder"?

1. Yes because a man's natural state is to be a rapist. If it woman doesn't cover herself up a man is like a wild animal with no controls who will immediately assault the women.
2. Showing your face isn't immodest, it's polite.
3. You're more likely to focus on a person's appearance if they look like a dementor rather than if they dress normally. And even if your point is correct, why don't men wear the veil too? It would ensure no-one considers physical characteristics.
4. Of course, because countries where many women wear the veil have such a wonderful record on gender equality. You're deluding yourself if you actually think the veil promotes the status of women in society.