EU referendum/Brexit 2016
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Original post by paddy25
Absolutely bang on. I'm so glad you intervened. I was getting a bit tired...
I think that is more-or-less the point of the "out" argument, to wear everyone out who shows a bit of sense on the issues and can cite a bit of evidence to support that. The just like to shout a lot, spouting all kinds of nonsense, but without saying very much.
Original post by typonaut
Can you point to the part in any EU treaty that says there will be an EU army? And the next part where it says the purpose of the EU army is to invade the UK?
The Treaty on European Union is:
"RESOLVED to implement a common foreign and security policy including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a common defence in accordance with the provisions of Article 42, thereby reinforcing the European identity and its independence in order to promote peace, security and progress in Europe and in the world,"
Article 42:
"3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy."
See this description of European Battle Groups
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/esdp/91624.pdf
Fortunately the UK veto on the ATHENA finance committee has crippled the full development of an EU army. Vote "Remain" and it will be fully operational. The eventual intention is to merge the EU defence forces.
The EU army will only be used to implement agreed Council decisions. The UK Regional Government would welcome them in to maintain order if that were necessary.
[QUOTE]It's the "European Council" isn't it? I think the problem you are having here is that whatever does not give you personally a majority must be unfair. Additionally your figure is wrong. According to this source the UK's weighting is around 13%:
https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/
If you work it out on a population basis (503 EU total population, UK 64 million of that, ie 12.7%), then our allocation is actually spot on.
The actual proportion of votes is less (about 8.5%) but QMV gives opposition a greater weight - check the Treaties. 8 or 13% is still nowhere near the 100% that we have at Westminster!
No state has independence, we are all interdependent.
Yeah man, its all interconnected....
Except that much of government still comes from Westminster and not the Globe in general, but it wont if you vote "Remain".
Original post by typonaut
I think that is more-or-less the point of the "out" argument, to wear everyone out who shows a bit of sense on the issues and can cite a bit of evidence to support that. The just like to shout a lot, spouting all kinds of nonsense, but without saying very much.
I bit like this post then.
Original post by newpersonage
TThe EU army will only be used to implement agreed Council decisions. The UK Regional Government would welcome them in to maintain order if that were necessary.
So I think that's you conceding that you cannot show that an EU army is going to invade the UK.
The actual proportion of votes is less (about 8.5%) but QMV gives opposition a greater weight - check the Treaties. 8 or 13% is still nowhere near the 100% that we have at Westminster!
So, again, that's you conceding that our voting weight is inline with our population share in the EU.
Except that much of government still comes from Westminster and not the Globe in general, but it wont if you vote "Remain".
This is where you are just confusing yourself and others. Whenever the UK signs treaties/agreements with other states that imposes a loss of control. There's no getting away from that, and that's the point the LEAVErs appear unable to address.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I bit like this post then.
Yes, exactly like your post!
Original post by typonaut
This is where you are just confusing yourself and others. Whenever the UK signs treaties/agreements with other states that imposes a loss of control. There's no getting away from that, and that's the point the LEAVErs appear unable to address.
This is where you are just confusing yourself and others. Whenever the UK signs treaties/agreements with other states that imposes a loss of control. There's no getting away from that, and that's the point the LEAVErs appear unable to address.
Look, why don't you come right out with what you believe instead of sniping: do you believe that Government by the EU is a good idea? Do you believe that there will only be peace in the world once we have some form of world government?
Original post by typonaut
This map is wrong in so many ways. The first mistake is that it actually understates the extent of communism in Europe. The entirety of the Balkans, from the Black Sea to the Adriatic, barring Greece and the European segment of Turkey, were "communist" states.
Germany (obviously the East and West), Italy, Austria and Spain were under fascist dictatorships. Greece and Portugal were also under military "governance", it's arguable whether you would call these too "fascist".
The southern portion of France was "Vichy France". I don't think it's really correct to say that this was a fascist state. It was under French military control, but was also essentially subservient to the Nazi regime.
All of the EU countries on the map, with the exception of the UK, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal were under the control of the Nazi regime (towards the end of the second world war that was probably true of Italy too) because they had been invaded.
As has been stated above, it's worth remembering that this turmoil, and that of the previous thousand years or so, was one of the reasons for the EU coming into being - to bring peace and order amongst the nations of Europe.
Now some say that it's NATO that has done this. The problem with that is that France was not a member of NATO for many years. Sweden, Austria and the Republic of Ireland have never been members. In addition, I would argue that peace in Europe is not about military force on one side or the other, it is derived from economic and cultural exchange between the nations of the region - and that is significantly enhanced through membership of the EU.
Germany (obviously the East and West), Italy, Austria and Spain were under fascist dictatorships. Greece and Portugal were also under military "governance", it's arguable whether you would call these too "fascist".
The southern portion of France was "Vichy France". I don't think it's really correct to say that this was a fascist state. It was under French military control, but was also essentially subservient to the Nazi regime.
All of the EU countries on the map, with the exception of the UK, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal were under the control of the Nazi regime (towards the end of the second world war that was probably true of Italy too) because they had been invaded.
As has been stated above, it's worth remembering that this turmoil, and that of the previous thousand years or so, was one of the reasons for the EU coming into being - to bring peace and order amongst the nations of Europe.
Now some say that it's NATO that has done this. The problem with that is that France was not a member of NATO for many years. Sweden, Austria and the Republic of Ireland have never been members. In addition, I would argue that peace in Europe is not about military force on one side or the other, it is derived from economic and cultural exchange between the nations of the region - and that is significantly enhanced through membership of the EU.
With the matter of France in NATO it has to be remembered that for the whole of NATO history it either was in NATO or was de facto in NATO, being French they objected to how important the UK was in NATO, but even in their years outside NATO they were rather closely aligned and for all intents and purposes were part of NATO with no NATO jurisdiction over them. It also has to remember it's down to them being cheese eating surrender monkeys thinking that outside NATO the Russians would go light on them, and actually if the Warsaw Pact had attacked France their military forces would have come under NATO control anyway, it was merely domestic political gesturing. Further, it is worth noting that the non-members all part of the NATO partnership for peace program, along with all other parts of Europe that do not have some other form of plan with NATO, however I will not disagree with the statement that wide scale peace is down to economic factors now more than military, with economic war games all coming out with the conclusion "everybody is ****ed" pretty much no matter which even moderate powers fight wherever.
Original post by newpersonage
Look, why don't you come right out with what you believe instead of sniping: do you believe that Government by the EU is a good idea? Do you believe that there will only be peace in the world once we have some form of world government?
The question you are asking has no relevance to the point I made, which was that whenever a state signs international treaties it loses sovereignty (there are probably exceptions to this, but not many where all those signing "win").
The EU, at the moment, is not a government, although it has some characteristics of government. It is a voluntary arrangement between member states. We are quite a way past the period when nation states were flexing their muscles and grabbing bits of territory from each other - barring a few locations around the world. Certainly we are past that point in the EU, and most of Europe.
The period we have moved into the cooperation between nations, economically, socially and culturally. Part of that means closer cooperation between governments, the EU is a part of that movement. Another part of that movement are the other trading blocks being formed around the world, Yet another is the formation of the United Nations, and its predecessor the League of Nations.
A logical progression of this a federalised world. But anything like that seems a long, long way off to me - hundreds of years away. It would require a commonality between nations that does not yet exist.
Original post by typonaut
...
A logical progression of this a federalised world. But anything like that seems a long, long way off to me - hundreds of years away. It would require a commonality between nations that does not yet exist.
A logical progression of this a federalised world. But anything like that seems a long, long way off to me - hundreds of years away. It would require a commonality between nations that does not yet exist.
Do you want to see such an outcome?
Original post by newpersonage
Do you want to see such an outcome?
I don't have a view on it because the possibility seems far too remote to speculate about.
Original post by Jammy Duel
It also has to remember it's down to them being cheese eating surrender monkeys…
This is the kind of xenophobia that will lose the leave vote.
Just for an historical perspective, the French (Normans) invaded Britain in 1066, no one's kicked them out yet.
The UK has a huge balance of payments deficit (current account) with the EU. The EU exported goods and services worth £288,265 million to the UK in 2014 which was £61,578 million more than the UK exported to the EU. This huge trade deficit was not due to a failure by UK exporters.
UK exporters do very well in non-EU markets.
It was due to an undervalued currency versus the euro and to a huge amount of investment in the UK in euros which are cheaper to spend without exchange charges (ie: on euro denominated goods) on imports from the EU. The euro investment in the UK is due to the terrible performance of many EU economies and leads to profits, rents and dividends being remitted abroad to create a huge Primary and Secondary Income Deficit (about £47 bn pa).
It could be argued that this foreign investment is "good" for the UK but the UK has low unemployment so 50% of the jobs created suck in workers from overseas. In 2015 UK nationals working in the UK increased by 278,000 to 28.28 million and non-UK nationals working in the UK increased by 254,000 to 3.22 million (or possibly much more if a National Insurance basis is used). This overpopulates the country, raising rentals and hence house prices.
The foreign investment is largely done by EU State owned corporations and these mercilessly extract profits from the UK without paying corporation tax - using the EU route of cross charging subsidiaries.
The net result of this sorry tale is that the UK is selling its assets at an alarming rate, accruing overseas payments liabilities on any profits from the assets, and any excess investment is used to employ EU workers to keep wage rates down.
UK exporters do very well in non-EU markets.
It was due to an undervalued currency versus the euro and to a huge amount of investment in the UK in euros which are cheaper to spend without exchange charges (ie: on euro denominated goods) on imports from the EU. The euro investment in the UK is due to the terrible performance of many EU economies and leads to profits, rents and dividends being remitted abroad to create a huge Primary and Secondary Income Deficit (about £47 bn pa).
It could be argued that this foreign investment is "good" for the UK but the UK has low unemployment so 50% of the jobs created suck in workers from overseas. In 2015 UK nationals working in the UK increased by 278,000 to 28.28 million and non-UK nationals working in the UK increased by 254,000 to 3.22 million (or possibly much more if a National Insurance basis is used). This overpopulates the country, raising rentals and hence house prices.
The foreign investment is largely done by EU State owned corporations and these mercilessly extract profits from the UK without paying corporation tax - using the EU route of cross charging subsidiaries.
The net result of this sorry tale is that the UK is selling its assets at an alarming rate, accruing overseas payments liabilities on any profits from the assets, and any excess investment is used to employ EU workers to keep wage rates down.
(edited 8 years ago)
It's great to see politicians opposite ends of the political spectrum agreeing completely with each other #brexit
Watch this:
http://youtu.be/VuKEjyERl14
It's time for GB to leave the EU
Watch this:
http://youtu.be/VuKEjyERl14
It's time for GB to leave the EU
Original post by newpersonage
The UK has a huge balance of payments deficit…
I'm not sure that it should be any surprise that the UK is a net importer from some of the most developed economies in the world, and a net exporter to some of the less developed economies in the world. I'm also not sure that grouping the EU against the rest of the world is that useful a comparison - when we probably do very different levels of business with different EU states. For example, what does the EU balance of payments look like if you take Germany out? What is our balance of payments with China, or the USA?
Also, how will leaving the EU make any difference to our balance of payments? It's more likely that administrative burdens will be placed on exporters to the EU, and/or that there will be tariffs for exporters.
Why are you using data that is more than a year out of date?
The foreign investment is largely done by EU State owned corporations and these mercilessly extract profits from the UK without paying corporation tax - using the EU route of cross charging subsidiaries.
This is nothing special within the EU, we should all know by now that large corporations divert profits overseas in order to benefit from lower taxation.
(edited 8 years ago)
The exit campaign score first blood with the leaflets, but it may be too early, and it's nowhere near the scale of the Conservatives' infamous 'No to AV' leaflet with Nick Clegg on the front and a load of made up stuff and sports analogies.
If 'In' do the leaflet shtick later, along with posters that say 'exit will kill babies', then they'll win by a landslide.
So what will be on that poster this time? In or out? Who strikes the killer blow first?
If 'In' do the leaflet shtick later, along with posters that say 'exit will kill babies', then they'll win by a landslide.
So what will be on that poster this time? In or out? Who strikes the killer blow first?
Original post by typonaut
I'm not sure that it should be any surprise that the UK is a net importer from some of the most developed economies in the world, and a net exporter to some of the less developed economies in the world. .......
You seem to have missed the point that the Eurozone crisis has led to excess foreign (EU) investment in the UK. This investment is largely by EU State owned industries and by EU investors who massage their money out of the EU to tax havens. Why is the investment excessive? The excess foreign investment has been financing both the Trade Deficit and the Primary Income Deficit (The profits, rents and dividends paid overseas). What the UK has been doing is flogging off its assets, largely to the EU to pay for current expenditure and whats worse, it is accumulating a huge liability for continuing payments by our children on the Primary Income Account (profits, rents dividends etc. paid abroad).
Why is the EU the problem? Countries such as Switzerland have also experienced the flight of Euros from the Eurozone but they have been able to take financial measures from central bank stockpiling Euros to slowing down and overcharging on currency exchange that the UK cannot take because of the free movement of capital in the EU.
How much better it would be to be like the Swiss, our central bank impounding billions of Euros so that they could not be wasted on imports from the EU.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ozzyoscy
The exit campaign score first blood with the leaflets, but it may be too early, and it's nowhere near the scale of the Conservatives' infamous 'No to AV' leaflet with Nick Clegg on the front and a load of made up stuff and sports analogies.
If 'In' do the leaflet shtick later, along with posters that say 'exit will kill babies', then they'll win by a landslide.
So what will be on that poster this time? In or out? Who strikes the killer blow first?
If 'In' do the leaflet shtick later, along with posters that say 'exit will kill babies', then they'll win by a landslide.
So what will be on that poster this time? In or out? Who strikes the killer blow first?
Why would you want te "IN" campaign to lie through their teeth to fool stupid people into giving up their country?
You are only given one country, throw it away and you will never get it back.
Original post by newpersonage
Why would you want te "IN" campaign to lie through their teeth to fool stupid people into giving up their country?
You are only given one country, throw it away and you will never get it back.
You are only given one country, throw it away and you will never get it back.
When did I say I want the in campaign to lie?... The **** is wrong with you?...
Original post by ozzyoscy
When did I say I want the in campaign to lie?... The **** is wrong with you?...
You were passively acquiescing in, and possibly actually supporting, misleading and dishonourable campaigning. I only asked why you would want the "in" campaign to lie. Surely we would all want the campaigns to be honourable.
Original post by newpersonage
You seem to have missed the point that the Eurozone crisis has led to excess foreign (EU) investment in the UK…
The eurozone is in crisis, but they still manage to buy our fixed assets at knock-down prices!? Whose economy is it that's in crisis!? David Cameron announces a referendum and the pound declines against both the USD and EUR.
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