Gender Identities

Identity is arbitrary, particularly with regards to names and pronouns. There isn't any factually incorrect or misleading about them. Using the word "he" instead of "she", or "she" instead of "he", does not require a considerable amount of respect. It requires no more respect than referring to someone by the name they give you.

That’s only according to your definitions of “he” and “she”, not mine. As per my definitions, they are not arbitrary; they explicitly indicate that the subject is male or female, respectively. As such, names and pronouns are not analogous.

If someone insists that I adapt my definitions to match theirs rather than vice-versa, then I still deem them to be demanding a considerable amount of respect; more so than they’re affording me.

Why does that demand a considerable amount of respect from you? How you refer to someone doesn't change what you internally believe.

Because as you said, a “basic level of respect” is something that everyone is entitled to, including me. That means it’s a two-way street.

Demanding that I adapt my definitions to match theirs whilst not doing the same vice-versa obviously doesn’t fulfil that.

Because as you said, a “basic level of respect” is something that everyone is entitled to, including me. That means it’s a two-way street.

Demanding that I adapt my definitions to match theirs whilst not doing the same vice-versa obviously doesn’t fulfil that.

You're more than welcome to assign whatever definitions you like to words. All that is being asked is that a matter of basic social etiquette and "getting along well with others" that we refer to a person in the way that they reasonably want us to.

The mutual respect comes from that person in turn referring to you by the pronoun that you would like them to use (even though they may have a different definition of that word) - that's the two way street.

Respecting the identity of another person doesn't require you to 'adapt your definitions'.

Yes it does? My definition of “she” always refers to females, never to males. So demanding that I use this word to refer to a male would require me to change the definition I’m using.

No it doesn't? How you interact with other people doesn't change what you fundamentally believe. You can believe that "he" should be reserved for biological men and "she" should be reserved for biological women but still refer to someone by their chosen pronouns.

Okay? That still requires a change in definition (e.g. use of the word “she” in a way that no longer refers exclusively to females).

It doesn't. How you interact with other people doesn't change what you think the definition should be, your beliefs can remain the same.

The problem is, it’s not possible to completely have it both ways. We can’t say “you’re fully welcome to use the words he and she to mean whatever you want”, and at the same time say “but you must use them such that this person is a he and that person is a she”. Those are two conflicting ideas.

It’s fine to request people to refer to you in a certain way. But as you’ve alluded to, there’s a limit to what is reasonable. In my opinion, those limits are breached when it becomes a demand rather than a request, for someone to express something that they consider to be at odds with their own worldview in favour of someone else’s. Because then it becomes a failure to respect people’s right to hold and express their own views.

It’s the same reason why, if a human asked me to refer to them as a cat, or a layman asked me to refer to them as a doctor, or a common man asked me to refer to them as “your royal highness”, I wouldn’t feel obligated to do so, and I don’t think most other people would either. For me, gendered pronouns fall into a similar category. They all ask me to express agreement with something I don’t agree to be true.

As I’ve said earlier, in those cases I may still choose to refer to people in the way they’ve asked me to. But that would be a case of me being extra-accommodating to them, rather than a basic level of respect that they’re automatically entitled to.



There’s a big difference though. I’ve never asked anybody to call me by any pronoun, yet all English speakers to have ever met me have converged on calling me “he”. That’s not because they’re respecting my choice, it’s because that’s what makes sense to them in their language. Nobody is having to set aside their own freedom to express their own worldview in order to call me this. (And if they are, by all means they can call me something else).

Thanks very much. But what you’re describing still requires me to use a different definition in my speech from the one that I prefer.

That wasn't the problem you raised earlier. Your problem was about 'adapting your definitions', despite it being perfectly valid for you to keep your definitions the same.

If you are now instead talking about what you are asked to do, i.e. to use the pronouns someone wants to have, then we only return to the original question. Why does that require a large amount of respect from you?

No it doesn't? How you interact with other people doesn't change what you fundamentally believe. You can believe that "he" should be reserved for biological men and "she" should be reserved for biological women but still refer to someone by their chosen pronouns.

Whatever one's views are on sex and gender, I'm very comfortable that when it comes to basic stuff like what someones name is, and how that person wants to be referred to, I'll let that person tell me what they'd like me to use, and I'll use them. I don't think I'm doing someone any special favours here - just being a decent and empathetic human being.

I don't really know what it's like to feel when your physical sex doesn't fit with the gender role you feel - but in a world with (in many ways) still quite distinct gender roles and expectations I can imagine it can make life feel pretty difficult at times - I'm more than happy to do my part in making others feel more comfortable in themselves by using the gender they want me to - it's basic empathy for others and it really costs nothing.

At the end of the day, we don't use pronouns because of passionate belief in their technical dictionary meaning, we don't speak as if we're scribing a scientific journal - we use them as part of natural conversational language in referring to people, and when we're referring to people in conversation, we generally want to do it nicely, or politely, or otherwise not rudely - that's how I go about my life anyway.

So ultimately it's a question of do you really want to go around winding people up & causing upset by using pronouns they don't like? It's a strange way to go about your life, and and it's not going to particularly endear you to those you treat that way. So I would just do the decent human thing, have some empathy and if someone asks you to use different gendered pronouns that the ones you were planning to use - just run with it.

That’s what I mean by “adapting my definitions”. Changing the definitions that I use in my speech to be different from the ones I have in my mind and would have otherwise preferred to use.



See above. I’m being asked to adapt the definitions (that I use) by someone who isn’t doing the same in return. That requires more respect than they’re giving me.

As much as I believe that you should respect one’s pronouns for the most part (it takes no effort at all in most cases), I can see the point that he’s trying to get here.

Some people view being he synonymous to being a biological man the same way that some people believe that being a she is synonymous to being a biological woman. By expecting someone who has this belief to call anyone who identifies as he, he (regardless of what their biological sex is) or expecting them to call anyone who identifies as she, she (regardless of what their biological sex is), that requires the person to adapt/change their definition of what it means to be he vs she i.e tazarooni wouldn’t be sticking by his definition or belief.

I think that’s the point he’s getting at unless I’m wrong here.

I see the point they are making, I just don't see how that qualifies as a considerable / unreasonable / large, etc, amount of respect.

It takes next to no effort to refer to someome as "he" or "she", depending on their identity.

If they aren't giving you the same respect in this situation it would be because they are, presumably, already referring to you in the way you want them to. They have no 'definitions to adapt', so the only reason you would be giving them more respect is by some technicality. Why does that qualify as a considerable amount of respect?

I see the point they are making, I just don't see how that qualifies as a considerable / unreasonable / large, etc,amount of respect.

It takes next to no effort to refer to someome as "he" or "she", depending on their identity.