The Student Room Group

Implicit and parametric curves

Question is: Given a surface in both parametric p(u,v) and implicit function f(p)=0 forms,

Prove that the surface normal of the parametric form is parallel to the normal of the implicit form.

Now I know for implicit it is (df/dx, df/dy, df/dz) and for parametric it is dp/du x dp/dv but I am not sure how to equate them. I think I have to use the chain rule in some way to manipulate the df/dx to get it to equal c*(dy/du dz/dv - dz/du dy/dv) but I’m not sure how.


I have some alternate reasoning:

Implicit function normal = (df/dx, df/dy, df/dz), using chain rule we have that:
0 = df/du = n dot dp/du
0 = df/dv = n dot dp/dv
because of the chain rule
df/du = 0 (I think???) because for all u and v, f(p) = 0 (I think by definition), so df/du and df/dv =0 must equal 0 (I am not sure if that is solid enough reasoning).

For parametric it is N = dp/du cross product dp/dv. So it is parallel to both dp/du and dp/dv, so is n (implicit normal) so they must be parallel? is that solid
(edited 3 months ago)
Reply 1
Original post by grhas981
Question is: Given a surface in both parametric p(u,v) and implicit function f(p)=0 forms,

Prove that the surface normal of the parametric form is parallel to the normal of the implicit form.

Now I know for implicit it is (df/dx, df/dy, df/dz) and for parametric it is dp/du x dp/dv but I am not sure how to equate them. I think I have to use the chain rule in some way to manipulate the df/dx to get it to equal c*(dy/du dz/dv - dz/du dy/dv) but I’m not sure how.

At a point P, the derivatives along u and v will be zero so
df/du = df/dx dx/du + df/dy dy/du + df/dz dz/du = 0
df/dv = df/dx dx/dv + df/dy dy/dv + df/dz dz/dv = 0
Multiply first by dx/dv and the second by dx/du and subtract to get
df/dy [ dy/du dx/dv - dy/dv dx/du] + df/dz [...] = 0
and do the same again (twice) you can make the argument about [df/dx,df/dy,df/dz] being parallel to the cross product of dx/du and dx/dv
Reply 2
Original post by mqb2766

At a point P, the derivatives along u and v will be zero so
df/du = df/dx dx/du + df/dy dy/du + df/dz dz/du = 0
df/dv = df/dx dx/dv + df/dy dy/dv + df/dz dz/dv = 0
Multiply first by dx/dv and the second by dx/du and subtract to get
df/dy [ dy/du dx/dv - dy/dv dx/du] + df/dz [...] = 0
and do the same again (twice) you can make the argument about [df/dx,df/dy,df/dz] being parallel to the cross product of dx/du and dx/dv


Thanks that actually makes perfect sense, the question does further ask: Will the normals remain parallel if the implicit function is also a signed distance function?

My answer would be yes since everything in the solution should still hold, (not entirely sure though)

And further: ‘why is the sign ambiguous?’ And I have no idea why the sign would be ambiguous
(edited 3 months ago)
Reply 3
Original post by grhas981
At a point P, the derivatives along u and v will be zero so
df/du = df/dx dx/du + df/dy dy/du + df/dz dz/du = 0
df/dv = df/dx dx/dv + df/dy dy/dv + df/dz dz/dv = 0
Multiply first by dx/dv and the second by dx/du and subtract to get
df/dy [ dy/du dx/dv - dy/dv dx/du] + df/dz [...] = 0
and do the same again (twice) you can make the argument about [df/dx,df/dy,df/dz] being parallel to the cross product of dx/du and dx/dv

Thanks that actually makes perfect sense, the question does further ask: Will the normals remain parallel if the implicit function is also a signed distance function?

My answer would be yes since everything in the solution should still hold, (not entirely sure though)

And further: ‘why is the sign ambiguous?’ And I have no idea why the sign would be ambiguous

It's hard to see how adding an extra property (that f is a SDF) can change something you've already derived, but it might depend on context. E.g. if you're using the SDF in a ray-marching algorithm, the normal found during a marching step won't be the same as the actual surface normal, which might be important. (This is kind of obvious of course - just throwing it out there that something like that might be what they're after).

For a parametric surface, "flipping" one of the parameters (e.g. p1pp \to 1-p) will flip the normal, so the sign of the normal isn't well defined. (Similarly if f(x) = 0 defines an implicit surface, multiply f by -1 flips the normal).
(edited 3 months ago)
Reply 4
@grhas981 - can you edit your reply and make sure you don't have unmatched {quote} {/quote} tags (with square brackets where I've used curly ones). The TSR quoting system is broken and it will cause problems for anyone quoting your post.

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