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Why would people be against abortion?

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Original post by tazarooni89
There’s no “cut off point” here. Something either contains human genes or it doesn’t. Something can either develop into a fetus or it can’t. They’re discrete rather than continuous differences.

Then change "cut-off" to "criteria", the point remains the same.
Original post by SHallowvale
Then change "cut-off" to "criteria", the point remains the same.

That makes all the difference. Criteria are needed in definitions to be able to meaningfully talk about anything. Cut-off points aren't.
Original post by tazarooni89
That makes all the difference. Criteria are needed in definitions to be able to meaningfully talk about anything. Cut-off points aren't.

And? My question still remains. You have given criteria to define what makes something "human life". Why should we use that criteria, as opposed to some other criteria?
Reply 43
Original post by Anonymous #1
Never understood why people are against abortion especially when it comes to strangers online. It doesnt affect you so why are you bothered about it. People will always make excuses like "dont have sex" or "its killing the baby" but i dont understand why some people act like a POTENTIAL life is more valuable than the mother - who is currently living a life.
People will always say stupid **** like "abortion is only okay if the girl got raped" but honestly i think thats just a stupid statement because a girl should be able to get an abortion because its her body? They have the right to control their bodies and its just annoying to see posts on social media with people spouting nonsense.
Only saying this because my friend thought she was pregnant and she was talking to her family that she will get an abortion. She's not pregnant but her whole family was against the idea but she was dead set on it. Again, why do people car, surely its better to support them? Abortion isnt exactly a walk in the park either.

can't quote this properly i don't think, but

as per the op, if this is what you're seeing (and so am i) - 'abortion is only okay if the girl got raped' - then surely we should be able to deduce an answer from this, no? it's not that anti-abortions care about the foetus itself or deem it the same as a newborn infant - it's the method of getting pregnant that anti-abortions take issue with; cuz if sexual intercourse isn't a person's fault, then suddenly the resulting foetus isn't a 'person' or a baby anymore with the same right to life and is consequently disposable; and indeed majority of anti-abortionists make the rape exception too (in america at least. 86% of all parties/76% of republicans support rape exception, source available upon request).

abortion is immoral in their view because it's a way to cover-up sexual sin, reminiscent of some early feelings of the catholic church where st augustine declared that abortion is not homicide but was a sin if it was intended to conceal fornication or adultery. least old timers were honest about their beliefs and didn't try to mask it with nonsense like abortion is murdering a person. notice when abortion was criminalised in the 19th century it wasn't cuz anyone campaigning or lawmakers felt the foetus is a person; not even the woman carrying it was considered a person so that would be impossible.

ofc just because something isn't made easily or legally available doesn't mean abortion is prevented; it's just delayed and/or done more dangerously, therefore punishing the person pregnant, the underlining objective here. it's not right that women can be sexually reckless and get away with it like men can. especially not fair that all they have to do is ask god for forgiveness afterward and their sins will be cleansed, can still go to heaven without significant punishment on earth seemingly, since the vast majority of people report they do not regret their abortions (source available).

meanwhile there is no downside to being the foetus. worst case scenario it's handed a guaranteed ticket to heaven without having to do anything to earn it and can avoid all pain on earth. all glory, no effort. really, ya think foetus is looking down on earth and getting fomo, missing out on his 'hoe phase' and instagram likes?
Original post by tazarooni89
There’s no “cut off point” here. Something either contains human genes or it doesn’t. Something can either develop into a fetus or it can’t. They’re discrete rather than continuous differences.

A fertilised egg can't develop into a fetus without a viable womb either.
Part of the problem with this debate is the misconception that there's a single thing called "abortion", when really what that describes is a variety of very different procedures. Early abortions can just involve taking a pill or two than inhibit the release of hormones needed for a pregnancy to develop, thus causing it to terminate. By contrast, later abortions typically involve surgically going in to manually remove the fetus from the womb, or even inducing early labour. The latter procedures are also often used to manage miscarriages.
Original post by SHallowvale
And? My question still remains. You have given criteria to define what makes something "human life". Why should we use that criteria, as opposed to some other criteria?


You don’t have to. You can call cats and bananas and all sorts things without human DNA “human life” if you want. But nobody will understand what you’re talking about.

Again I reiterate the pointlessness of this question though. Do you also think white colonialists were justified in killing African bushmen as a result of selecting criteria for “human life” that didn’t include them? If not then you don’t really believe your own argument.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by anarchism101
A fertilised egg can't develop into a fetus without a viable womb either.


I know that. What’s your point?
Original post by tazarooni89
I know that. What’s your point?

So, by your own definitions, you wouldn't consider a fertilised egg a "human life", if it can't develop?
Original post by tazarooni89
You don’t have to. You can call cats and bananas and all sorts things without human DNA “human life” if you want. But nobody will understand what you’re talking about.

Then what's the problem with abortion? Just define embryos and fetuses as not "human life".
Original post by anarchism101
So, by your own definitions, you wouldn't consider a fertilised egg a "human life", if it can't develop?

Cue the inevitable 'natural course of things' argument, or words to that effect.
Original post by anarchism101
So, by your own definitions, you wouldn't consider a fertilised egg a "human life", if it can't develop?


But it can develop into a fetus. It just needs the right conditions. An unfertilised egg can’t.
Original post by tazarooni89
But it can develop into a fetus. It just needs the right conditions. An unfertilised egg can’t.

Yes it can, if it gets the additional "right condition" of coming into contact with viable sperm.
Original post by SHallowvale
Then what's the problem with abortion? Just define embryos and fetuses as not "human life".


What’s the problem with killing the African bushman? What’s the problem with killing anybody? Just define them as “not human life”.
Original post by anarchism101
Yes it can, if it gets the additional "right condition" of coming into contact with viable sperm.


Then it’s not an unfertilised egg, it’s a fertilised one.

It’s not the egg alone that develops into a fetus, it the egg and sperm combination that develops into one.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by tazarooni89
What’s the problem with killing the African bushman? What’s the problem with killing anybody? Just define them as “not human life”.

You tell me, it's your argument being debated. You haven't given any reason why "human life" should be defined as anything after fertilisation, it could easily be defined otherwise.
Original post by tazarooni89
That's exactly what I'm saying.

No, I'm not "being silly for arguments sake"; I'm pointing out that if you're claiming that they have different value, then you need to be able to provide an iron-clad justification for that. It's not something that can just be taken as given in a debate on abortion when it's the very crux of what both sides disagree on. One doesn't win a debate on a highly controversial issue simply by saying "oh well any sensible person would agree with me".

Have you considered the implications of the idea that it's fine to kill a bunch of cells which can't think or feel (at present)? For example, the fact that this would also make it fine to kill someone who is temporarily under general anaesthetic or in a coma? These sorts of examples tell me that the ability to think and feel aren't usually considered to be requirements for someone to have the right to survive.

And indeed, that's if we're even certain at all that the unborn child / foetus can't think or feel. As recently as the 1980's we also thought that babies couldn't feel pain and routinely performed surgery on them with no anaesthetic; we now know what a terrible idea that was. Furthermore, brain and nervous activity becomes detectable after only 6 weeks of gestation, which is already far earlier than the 24 week abortion limit.

Now you are just saying that they are the same because you say they are the same, even though they are obviously not the same. Next you will be saying that a mushroom is the same as a kitten.
As I said just being silly for the sake of an argument.
Original post by tazarooni89
But it can develop into a fetus. It just needs the right conditions. An unfertilised egg can’t.

I can get a PhD in quantum physics. I just need the right conditions. By your argument I AM a expert quantum physicist and should have all the rights and benefits of one, and you must cal me Doctor 2WheelGod.
Original post by tazarooni89
It isn't needed. If we already agree that in general it is wrong to kill other members of the human species, it is the exception that requires justification rather than the rule. The burden of proof lies with those saying it is morally acceptable to kill them.

The argument here is that a bunch of unthinking, unfeeling cells is not a member of the human species in the way an adult is. You say they are but your argument is just "because I say so". You need a better argument than that. Especially when it is obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that the two things are not at all the same.
Original post by SHallowvale
You tell me, it's your argument being debated. You haven't given any reason why "human life" should be defined as anything after fertilisation, it could easily be defined otherwise.


No, I’m first asking you if you really believe your own argument. If you don’t, I’m not particularly interested in engaging with it.

Do you believe it is valid to kill any type of person just by first selecting a definition of “human life” that excludes them?
(edited 2 months ago)

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