Why did France ban abaya ban in schools

Original post by Peter100121

I heard more and more Muslims are leaving france and Germany to move to countries like Canada, USA

They didn't just ban the abaya, though. What's your source on Muslims emigrating? Are lots of followers of other religions leaving France?

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/09/05/france-s-century-long-crusade-against-religious-symbols-at-school-from-the-crucifix-to-the-abaya_6124828_7.html

Reply 3

shimmyjimmyfor3

I'm not into politics but even I know france is a mess I thought it was a liberal country like super liberal so the abaya and niqab bans were quite shocking or was it depending on the way you interpret it.

Maybe french liberals see the abaya as misogynistic maybe its to integrate muslims into liberal ways who knows but France is finished either way

Reply 4

Original post by shimmyjimmyfor3

I'm not into politics but even I know france is a mess I thought it was a liberal country like super liberal so the abaya and niqab bans were quite shocking or was it depending on the way you interpret it.

Maybe french liberals see the abaya as misogynistic maybe its to integrate muslims into liberal ways who knows but France is finished either way

It is a liberal country. Their moto is Liberty, Egality, Fraternity. With with the second word in mind, education is for all without prejudice. So no one wears symbols of religion in French schools including Catholics (the French national religion) wearing a crucifix necklace. You are at school to learn, not wear your identity.

Is it not the custom that when visiting or inhabiting another nation, you abide by the local rules / customs. So if visiting an Arab / Muslim nation, it would be reasonable to not eat Pork, drink alcohol and dress modestly including women covering their hair? Surely it therefore follows that visitors to places like France also adopt and respect the local customs and laws?

And of course, if those people are not happy to abide by the standards of French hospitality, they are welcome to travel elsewhere no?

(edited 2 months ago)

Reply 5

AriTem

Original post by hotpud

It is a liberal country. Their moto is Liberty, Egality, Fraternity. With with the second word in mind, education is for all without prejudice. So no one wears symbols of religion in French schools including Catholics (the French national religion) wearing a crucifix necklace. You are at school to learn, not wear your identity.

Is it not the custom that when visiting or inhabiting another nation, you abide by the local rules / customs. So if visiting an Arab / Muslim nation, it would be reasonable to not eat Pork, drink alcohol and dress modestly including women covering their hair? Surely it therefore follows that visitors to places like France also adopt and respect the local customs and laws?

But they are not visitors. They are citizens. This is going to be the next tension point for European nations where the immigrant population starts to outnumber the indigenous population especially where the immigrant population wants to live a culturally different life. Like it or not there is already and increasing backlash with far right policies becoming more mainstream. That's also the reason (let's be honest) why Ukrainians were taken in by Europe unlike the Palestinians. Do immigrants have a right to maintain their local customs? Should they have to integrate and adopt new ways of living? I think the world is going to become more polarized in the next 100 years not just because of immigration but also because the global south/east are showing signs that they aren't willing to subscribe to the western democracy even if they pay lip service to it.

Reply 6

Original post by AriTem

But they are not visitors. They are citizens. This is going to be the next tension point for European nations where the immigrant population starts to outnumber the indigenous population especially where the immigrant population wants to live a culturally different life. Like it or not there is already and increasing backlash with far right policies becoming more mainstream. That's also the reason (let's be honest) why Ukrainians were taken in by Europe unlike the Palestinians. Do immigrants have a right to maintain their local customs? Should they have to integrate and adopt new ways of living? I think the world is going to become more polarized in the next 100 years not just because of immigration but also because the global south/east are showing signs that they aren't willing to subscribe to the western democracy even if they pay lip service to it.

Same difference. If I were to move to the United Emirates and then start walking around without my top on and a pint of beer in my hand could I state that being arrested would cause tensions between British residents and those whose customs I would be offending? No. I would expect to be arrested and rightly so.

So why is it different when those who have different customs come to a country with a very well established culture like France? Are you honestly suggesting the French should change their culture to accommodate their new residents?

Of course immigrants have the right to maintain their customs and religions. But equally they have an obligation to be sensitive and appreciative and change and adapt to blend into the culture of their new home.

And to this end, yes, this is why Ukrainian's were more welcome than Palestinians. People like people who are like themselves. It is human nature.

(edited 2 months ago)

Reply 7

jacksmith23

Original post by Peter100121

I heard more and more Muslims are leaving france and Germany to move to countries like Canada, USA

laicite. religion should be kept to private life according to this doctrine if you like.

Reply 8

shimmyjimmyfor3

Original post by hotpud

It is a liberal country. Their moto is Liberty, Egality, Fraternity. With with the second word in mind, education is for all without prejudice. So no one wears symbols of religion in French schools including Catholics (the French national religion) wearing a crucifix necklace. You are at school to learn, not wear your identity.

Is it not the custom that when visiting or inhabiting another nation, you abide by the local rules / customs. So if visiting an Arab / Muslim nation, it would be reasonable to not eat Pork, drink alcohol and dress modestly including women covering their hair? Surely it therefore follows that visitors to places like France also adopt and respect the local customs and laws?

And of course, if those people are not happy to abide by the standards of French hospitality, they are welcome to travel elsewhere no?

With the new migration law it seems that macrons government is adopting the far rights views on migration. You say it is a liberal country but theres many forms of liberalism and I thought France was on the progressive side like Canada I've seen articles that go as far to say that Frances government looks down or deporting terrorists or renouncing their citizenship which is just crazy liberal progressivism to me then you have the liberal conservatives/traditionalists who are reffered to as far right oppose almost all the cultural/political norms of modernity, and are vastly anti-immigration.

I agree with you that when you move to a nation you adopt the culture and way of life there or at least respect it but French people have no backbone it seems they let themselves get stepped on by immigrants even going as far that immigrants can walk into small towns and hold french people hostage. Or the brutal Lola case

France has destroyed their own country theyre cooked

Reply 9

AriTem

Original post by hotpud

Same difference. If I were to move to the United Emirates and then start walking around without my top on and a pint of beer in my hand could I state that being arrested would cause tensions between British residents and those whose customs I would be offending? No. I would expect to be arrested and rightly so.

So why is it different when those who have different customs come to a country with a very well established culture like France? Are you honestly suggesting the French should change their culture to accommodate their new residents?

Of course immigrants have the right to maintain their customs and religions. But equally they have an obligation to be sensitive and appreciative and change and adapt to blend into the culture of their new home.

And to this end, yes, this is why Ukrainian's were more welcome than Palestinians. People like people who are like themselves. It is human nature.

I'm not saying anything. It gives me a headache to think about it.

You can't compare what you might do in the UAE with what you expect immigrants to do in France. The issue is the political systems are different. Western Europe champions democracy and equality for all which means the immigrants have a right to do live their live how they want. You can't just roll back on these principals (and some of these are constitutional rights) and say you can have equality but only if you behave in a certain way. There might have been a thought in the past that immigrants would eventually integrate and after a few generations be no different from the natives. After all why would you as a muslim female choose to live a life where you are subservient to the males? Except some choose to do so despite experiencing a freer alternative for various reasons. Couple that with their birthrate trends and you can see why there is a real concern amongst the more traditionalist population and we can see that already in the rise of the right across Europe. Doesn't make it easier to find a consensus when you have an equally large part of the population who are liberals who are prepared to defend the principals of democracy and equality (like turkeys voting for Xmas).

And it's not just about the immigrants. Culture is not fixed and is constantly changing. 100 years ago homosexuality was considered an illness. Now we've reached a state where some in society are championing an individual's right to define their gender as they wish regardless of their biological sex.

Where do you draw the lines? Even amongst my liberal friends, there is huge variation in how some are embracing quite extreme conservative principles that you would never expect liberals to have. I give this some thought every so often and the best I can come up with for myself is I would need to consider each situation as it arises.

Reply 10

AriTem

Original post by shimmyjimmyfor3

With the new migration law it seems that macrons government is adopting the far rights views on migration. You say it is a liberal country but theres many forms of liberalism and I thought France was on the progressive side like Canada I've seen articles that go as far to say that Frances government looks down or deporting terrorists or renouncing their citizenship which is just crazy liberal progressivism to me then you have the liberal conservatives/traditionalists who are reffered to as far right oppose almost all the cultural/political norms of modernity, and are vastly anti-immigration.

I agree with you that when you move to a nation you adopt the culture and way of life there or at least respect it but French people have no backbone it seems they let themselves get stepped on by immigrants even going as far that immigrants can walk into small towns and hold french people hostage. Or the brutal Lola case

France has destroyed their own country theyre cooked

The French subscribe to liberty, equality and brotherhood. They have offered liberty and equality to the immigrant population and hoped that brotherhood would come in time. I'm not sure that the third will come to pass

Reply 11

Original post by shimmyjimmyfor3

With the new migration law it seems that macrons government is adopting the far rights views on migration. You say it is a liberal country but theres many forms of liberalism and I thought France was on the progressive side like Canada I've seen articles that go as far to say that Frances government looks down or deporting terrorists or renouncing their citizenship which is just crazy liberal progressivism to me then you have the liberal conservatives/traditionalists who are reffered to as far right oppose almost all the cultural/political norms of modernity, and are vastly anti-immigration.

I agree with you that when you move to a nation you adopt the culture and way of life there or at least respect it but French people have no backbone it seems they let themselves get stepped on by immigrants even going as far that immigrants can walk into small towns and hold french people hostage. Or the brutal Lola case

France has destroyed their own country theyre cooked

There are two sides here. Which is more important?

1.

The rights of indigenous French citizens to live the lives as they wish by the laws of the Republic they live in and the customs and society they have always known?

2.

The rights of a non-French immigrant to come and settle, ignore any previous societal cultural aspects and even laws of that land and then assert that living in a "free" country entitles them to their customs, culture and beliefs?

I can't think of any country in this world where I (a British citizen) could go, especially Arab or Muslim countries and rightfully assert my cultural beliefs that include eating Pork, drinking alcohol publicly, allowing my wife to walk around in a bikini, to be openly gay or trans and more besides without being punished very severely by the law of those lands.

Yet you seem to be suggesting that in reverse, the same principals do not apply? When you are a guest in someone's country regardless of whether you have been granted the right to citizenship or not, you abide by the rules of that house. It is a simple courtesy. One of France's core values is that religion is not a part of their education and it doesn't matter whether you were born in France, the UK, Pakistan or Syria, the rules still apply to you. And if you don't like those rules, there are plenty of other places in the world to live.

(edited 2 months ago)

Reply 12

Peter100121

OP

2

https://hyphenonline.com/2023/10/13/faced-with-discrimination-french-and-german-muslims-are-emigrating-to-the-uk/

So why in the U.K. are more liberal

Reply 13

tazarooni89

Original post by hotpud

It is a liberal country. Their moto is Liberty, Egality, Fraternity. With with the second word in mind, education is for all without prejudice. So no one wears symbols of religion in French schools including Catholics (the French national religion) wearing a crucifix necklace. You are at school to learn, not wear your identity.

Is it not the custom that when visiting or inhabiting another nation, you abide by the local rules / customs. So if visiting an Arab / Muslim nation, it would be reasonable to not eat Pork, drink alcohol and dress modestly including women covering their hair? Surely it therefore follows that visitors to places like France also adopt and respect the local customs and laws?

And of course, if those people are not happy to abide by the standards of French hospitality, they are welcome to travel elsewhere no?

Yes but people attending school in a country are, generally speaking, not "visitors" or "guests" but rather natives, residents or citizens of the country itself. It's not particularly straightforward for a French person to just go "brb moving to Arabia" as if any Arab country even has to take them.

It's also not as if they moved to France knowing perfectly well that it prohibits them from obeying their religion, and deciding to flout the laws once they got their anyway. A lot of these specific restrictions have been introduced after the fact, when people have already been wearing what they wanted to without it causing anyone else any problems. Imagine if tomorrow the UK decided to ban something that's important to you to be able to do, be it eating pork or drinking alcohol or whatever. Wouldn't you oppose the change? Or would you just go "cool I'm moving abroad now"?

(edited 1 month ago)

Reply 14

Original post by tazarooni89

Yes but people attending school in a country are, generally speaking, not "visitors" or "guests" but rather natives, residents or citizens of the country itself. It's not particularly straightforward for a French person to just go "brb moving to Arabia" as if any Arab country even has to take them.

It's also not as if they moved to France knowing perfectly well that it prohibits them from obeying their religion, and deciding to flout the laws once they got their anyway. A lot of these specific restrictions have been introduced after the fact, when people have already been wearing what they wanted to without it causing anyone else any problems. Imagine if tomorrow the UK decided to ban something that's important to you to be able to do, be it eating pork or drinking alcohol or whatever. Wouldn't you oppose the change? Or would you just go "cool I'm moving abroad now"?

Lots of British and French people living in Saudi Arabia. They offer their services to the oil industry and generally live in gated communities. When they are not in those gated communities, they must adhere to the local laws and customs so women are chaperoned, must wear head scarfs and are not allowed in general to drive.

You are right. Migrants to France do end up as citizens. But it is reasonable that they would adopt the customs and laws of the land. As such the law in France prohibits religious symbols in schools. It is what you might call a French value. Just because you are not French born and bred doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply to you even if you don't necessarily agree with that law. That is my point. It seems that it is reasonable for westerners to adopt extreme laws and customs elsewhere e.g. Saudi, but in the West it is somehow acceptable for people who have very different values to ours to not adopt our values because we are supposedly a liberal and allowing extreme conservatism (which is what we are basically talking about here) that generally sees women subverted especially in religious circles being tolerated.

Reply 15

tazarooni89

Original post by hotpud

Lots of British and French people living in Saudi Arabia. They offer their services to the oil industry and generally live in gated communities. When they are not in those gated communities, they must adhere to the local laws and customs so women are chaperoned, must wear head scarfs and are not allowed in general to drive.

You are right. Migrants to France do end up as citizens. But it is reasonable that they would adopt the customs and laws of the land. As such the law in France prohibits religious symbols in schools. It is what you might call a French value. Just because you are not French born and bred doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply to you even if you don't necessarily agree with that law. That is my point. It seems that it is reasonable for westerners to adopt extreme laws and customs elsewhere e.g. Saudi, but in the West it is somehow acceptable for people who have very different values to ours to not adopt our values because we are supposedly a liberal and allowing extreme conservatism (which is what we are basically talking about here) that generally sees women subverted especially in religious circles being tolerated.

You've missed my point though. Your entire post above is talking about migrants / expatriates. My point is that most people in a school (i.e. of a young age) are not going to be migrants or expatriates. Most likely they haven't moved there, rather they're citizens by birth who have lived there for their whole lives. In other words, France is to them, as the UK is to you.

So it's not a great analogy to say "If I moved to Saudi Arabia I would have to adopt local laws and customs". Obviously anyone moving to a country by choice should be prepared to adopt local laws and customs before doing so. But that's a completely separate issue from what I'm talking about. The issue is, what do you do when the country you already live in decides to take away one of your freedoms that was previously very important to you?

(edited 1 month ago)

Reply 16

Original post by tazarooni89

You've missed my point though. Your entire post above is talking about migrants / expatriates. My point is that most people in a school (i.e. of a young age) are not going to be migrants or expatriates. Most likely they haven't moved there, rather they're citizens by birth who have lived there for their whole lives. In other words, France is to them, as the UK is to you.

So it's not a great analogy to say "If I moved to Saudi Arabia I would have to adopt local laws and customs". Obviously anyone moving to a country by choice should be prepared to adopt local laws and customs before doing so. But that's a completely separate issue from what I'm talking about. The issue is, what do you do when the country you already live in decides to take away one of your freedoms that was previously very important to you?

My point stands. France has democratically elected to ban religious symbols from schools. It means French Catholics can show a crucifix necklace and French Muslim women can't wear a hijab. Everyone is equal and the focus is education, not religious education. One could argue it is just an extension of our demand for secondary students to wear a uniform. It provides and educational identity and puts everyone on the same level.

Reply 17

Original post by tazarooni89

Yes but people attending school in a country are, generally speaking, not "visitors" or "guests" but rather natives, residents or citizens of the country itself. It's not particularly straightforward for a French person to just go "brb moving to Arabia" as if any Arab country even has to take them.

It's also not as if they moved to France knowing perfectly well that it prohibits them from obeying their religion, and deciding to flout the laws once they got their anyway. A lot of these specific restrictions have been introduced after the fact, when people have already been wearing what they wanted to without it causing anyone else any problems. Imagine if tomorrow the UK decided to ban something that's important to you to be able to do, be it eating pork or drinking alcohol or whatever. Wouldn't you oppose the change? Or would you just go "cool I'm moving abroad now"?

We are not talking about the UK. We are talking about France which has a history of secularism dating back 300 or so years. Unlike the UK they have a clear separation between church and state where as in the UK ironically the CofE upholds the rights of all religions to express themselves openly in our state organisations.

Personally I like the French system. I don't like the fact that religion plays a part in our education system especially given the reputation of various religious denominations in the recent past. And when it becomes extreme we see the needs of religion overriding the facts of life as seen in the US for example. There are also examples of schools in the UK prioritising religious dogma over education.

Reply 18

Genesiss

hijab (along with christian crosses, jewish yarmulkes and sikh turbans) has been banned in public schools for 20 years now; so whilst a disappointment for some residents, it shouldn’t be surprised this is how France wants schools to be run. if wearing religious garb in middles schools and high schools is a dealbreaker then choose private school, homeschool or exercise that eu passport and choose another eu country. or wear the abaya to public school and wear another version of modest clothing inside? idk. i don't think this secularism is going away anytime soon.

(edited 1 month ago)

Reply 19

tazarooni89