Victim Blaming Or Taking Personal Responsibility To Minimise Risk?
Suppose Mr Money Bags wants to walk down dark alleys late at night in the inner city. Would you tell him that it's a bad idea and maybe he should reconsider?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely a mugger is 100% to blame if Mr Money Bags gets mugged down the dark alley and he should be free to do whatever he wants?
Suppose that someone had a nice car. Would you discourage them from leaving the doors unlocked or parking in a dodgy area?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely a thief or vandal is 100% to blame if the car gets stolen or vandalised and the owner should be free to do whatever he wants?
Do you lock the door to your house? Would you encourage others to lock their doors?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely a burglar is 100% to blame if he comes into your house and takes all your stuff and you should be free to do whatever you want?
Suppose a real estate investor wanted to build a house on the side of an active volcano. Would you tell him that it's a bad idea?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely the volcano is 100% to blame if it erupts and destroys the house and kills the family living inside, and people should be free to build houses and live anywhere they like?
Ideally we would live in a perfect society where nothing bad ever happens, but we don't - so should we take common sense measures to minimise the risk of bad things happening to us? Discuss.
Or is that victim blaming? Surely a mugger is 100% to blame if Mr Money Bags gets mugged down the dark alley and he should be free to do whatever he wants?
Suppose that someone had a nice car. Would you discourage them from leaving the doors unlocked or parking in a dodgy area?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely a thief or vandal is 100% to blame if the car gets stolen or vandalised and the owner should be free to do whatever he wants?
Do you lock the door to your house? Would you encourage others to lock their doors?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely a burglar is 100% to blame if he comes into your house and takes all your stuff and you should be free to do whatever you want?
Suppose a real estate investor wanted to build a house on the side of an active volcano. Would you tell him that it's a bad idea?
Or is that victim blaming? Surely the volcano is 100% to blame if it erupts and destroys the house and kills the family living inside, and people should be free to build houses and live anywhere they like?
Ideally we would live in a perfect society where nothing bad ever happens, but we don't - so should we take common sense measures to minimise the risk of bad things happening to us? Discuss.
Scroll to see replies
I can see where this is going. The difference is, women are not objects, and most rapes are
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I can see where this is going. The difference is, women are not objects, and most rapes are
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
To add to this, the often-quoted analogy of leaving your car unlocked is a flawed one. The function of a car lock is not to 'discourage' car theft, but to physically prevent it.
By contrast, short of a chastity belt a woman cannot wear anything that will physically prevent a rapist.
Thank goodness for the imagery or I'd be totally lost.
To answer your question, caution is something that should be omnipresent in everyone and in every situations. Mentioning the above should merely be considered a reminder of the obvious. I may not fully understand your point.
To answer your question, caution is something that should be omnipresent in everyone and in every situations. Mentioning the above should merely be considered a reminder of the obvious. I may not fully understand your point.
I think both sides of the argument seem to fail to acknowledge or address something important.
It would obviously be a bad idea for a girl to walk through town late at night only wearing a bikini. And of course anyone in their right mind would advise her not to do that.
However, the point is that it shouldn't be like that. A girl shouldn't have to worry about being raped no matter what she is wearing.
Now this may all seem arbitrary, but actually it leads to the conclusion that if a girl gets raped and she was wearing revealing clothes, she should not have to take any blame for it, because its not her that's in the wrong for wearing the revealing clothes, the blame is entirely on the rapist.
If we were to blame women for it would be oppressing women. It would be like saying Sikhs should get blamed for getting beaten up because wearing a turban makes you more of a target for racists.
Also, if a girl has been raped, then I think she has been subject to enough abuse already. I'm sure she won't even be going out at a night for a while so I hardly see how blaming is going to achieve anything.
It would obviously be a bad idea for a girl to walk through town late at night only wearing a bikini. And of course anyone in their right mind would advise her not to do that.
However, the point is that it shouldn't be like that. A girl shouldn't have to worry about being raped no matter what she is wearing.
Now this may all seem arbitrary, but actually it leads to the conclusion that if a girl gets raped and she was wearing revealing clothes, she should not have to take any blame for it, because its not her that's in the wrong for wearing the revealing clothes, the blame is entirely on the rapist.
If we were to blame women for it would be oppressing women. It would be like saying Sikhs should get blamed for getting beaten up because wearing a turban makes you more of a target for racists.
Also, if a girl has been raped, then I think she has been subject to enough abuse already. I'm sure she won't even be going out at a night for a while so I hardly see how blaming is going to achieve anything.
(edited 10 years ago)
I wonder what % of rapes is your stereotypical "woman dragged from the streets into the bushes" type scenario. Probably not high enough to warrant ridiculous levels of precaution.
In any case, avoiding dark alleys/walking home alone late at night is just common sense, no matter what crime you're trying to avoid
In any case, avoiding dark alleys/walking home alone late at night is just common sense, no matter what crime you're trying to avoid
The last one is not victim blaming as a volcano is an object and clearly objects have no moral responsibility so that's his own damn fault. The rest are 100% victim blaming though. You should be able to walk around at night, park your car wherever and not have to lock your house ( in many parts of the country people don't lock their front doors!)
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I can see where this is going. The difference is, women are not objects, and most rapes are
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
Wish I could rep you a thousand times!
No you tell the Volcano to stop raping people!!
I'd make my daughter follow good safety habits, regardless of whether it's a victim blaming attitude or not.
She'd learn a martial art and would try to be cautious in general
She'd learn a martial art and would try to be cautious in general
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I can see where this is going. The difference is, women are not objects, and most rapes are
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
1) committed by someone the victim knows and not the stranger in the alleyway. So what she wears isn't anything to do with it
2) are about power and domination and not sex, again, what she wears isn't anything to do with it/ It's more about putting power over people, which is why those with learning difficulties or mental illnesses are the victims of violent crime more often than other groups
So your whole thread is pointless, and yes, it is victim blaming
Even if women are not objects, and most rapes are committed regardless of what women are wearing, what has that got to do with whether or not it's "victim blaming" to posit the existence of a precaution that makes one less prone to a crime?
Even if the precaution doesn't work in most cases, and no "objects" are involved - suppose I suggest that a person is less likely to be murdered if they don't go out extremely late at night (which isn't actually true, even though it is easily perceived to be) - would you describe that as victim blaming?
If so - can you explain for the sake of clarity, at what point does expressing a way to avoid being the victim of a crime become "victim blaming"?
Original post by anarchism101
To add to this, the often-quoted analogy of leaving your car unlocked is a flawed one. The function of a car lock is not to 'discourage' car theft, but to physically prevent it.
By contrast, short of a chastity belt a woman cannot wear anything that will physically prevent a rapist.
By contrast, short of a chastity belt a woman cannot wear anything that will physically prevent a rapist.
This.
As far as I see, the closest a woman could get to the 'unlocked' analogy is lying down on the pavement with her legs spread...as crass an image as that it.
Women, if you really want to go there OP, are 'locked'. Any rapist that targets a woman in a dark alley etc, has to force himself on to her. More akin to a burglar smashing the window and entering, then blaming the victim for having windows at all.
There are times when there is no choice but to put yourself in what might be a slightly precarious situation. To get home sometimes I have to walk through a dodgy area of town on my own, at night. Sometimes it is impossible or extremely inconvenient to do the safest thing. Taxis, people are forgetting cost money.
And besides as another poster has said, it is rare, so women can most of the time be assured they're safe.
Original post by ktwoodwards
Wish I could rep you a thousand times!
Thanks! Glad to see most people disagreeing with OP. Makes a change from the usual way these threads go..
Original post by tazarooni89
Even if women are not objects, and most rapes are committed regardless of what women are wearing, what has that got to do with whether or not it's "victim blaming" to posit the existence of a precaution that makes one less prone to a crime?
Even if the precaution doesn't work in most cases, and no "objects" are involved - suppose I suggest that a person is less likely to be murdered if they don't go out extremely late at night (which isn't actually true, even though it is easily perceived to be) - would you describe that as victim blaming?
If so - can you explain for the sake of clarity, at what point does expressing a way to avoid being the victim of a crime become "victim blaming"?
Even if the precaution doesn't work in most cases, and no "objects" are involved - suppose I suggest that a person is less likely to be murdered if they don't go out extremely late at night (which isn't actually true, even though it is easily perceived to be) - would you describe that as victim blaming?
If so - can you explain for the sake of clarity, at what point does expressing a way to avoid being the victim of a crime become "victim blaming"?
When you imply that by doing certain things the victim is responsible for the crime. It's fine to say certain actions are more risky than others. But that by no means makes it their fault.
Are extreme sports players responsible for their injuries? Is it a soldiers fault he got his leg blown off? Even if there is a raised risk, it doesn't make it their fault
Original post by anarchism101
To add to this, the often-quoted analogy of leaving your car unlocked is a flawed one. The function of a car lock is not to 'discourage' car theft, but to physically prevent it.
By contrast, short of a chastity belt a woman cannot wear anything that will physically prevent a rapist.
By contrast, short of a chastity belt a woman cannot wear anything that will physically prevent a rapist.
I can hardly wait for the advent of the Snow Crash-esque dentata.
This mode of prevention doesn't work. It just tells women to fear strangers, which leads to concepts like Schrodinger's Rapist, which then leads to men complaining about being considered "a creep".
Frankly put, an empty park is just an empty park. A back-alley is just a back-alley. When you remove the slasher flicks from your head, you begin to realize that these places are pretty harmless and tend not to host any great danger most of the time. Now an empty park with the guy who has been hitting on you for several weeks, ignoring your rejections and discomfort, then you might have a problem.
Most rapes are committed in intimate settings, and by someone the victim knows. Alcohol is usually involved. We know this from the testaments of rape victims. The best prevention is to learn about a potentially troubling character, which will require you to screen the men in your life and avoid those that fail the test. This is really something that should be taught in schools.
Rapists will prey on people they can overcome, who won't put up much of a fight should it come to it. A predatory rapist wants something from women - sex - and he intends to get it. Yet they don't go straight to rape. They attempt to flirt, cajole and pressure into bed (just hit up some of the near-rape cases posted on this site). If the women reacts aggressively, that's usually when he attacks. Acting like rapes will "just happen" if a woman ends up in a bad place ignores all the recurring evidence we have about the crimes. They seldom 'just happen'. There can be weeks, or even months, of build up to a rape. It's a very personal crime.
Frankly put, an empty park is just an empty park. A back-alley is just a back-alley. When you remove the slasher flicks from your head, you begin to realize that these places are pretty harmless and tend not to host any great danger most of the time. Now an empty park with the guy who has been hitting on you for several weeks, ignoring your rejections and discomfort, then you might have a problem.
Most rapes are committed in intimate settings, and by someone the victim knows. Alcohol is usually involved. We know this from the testaments of rape victims. The best prevention is to learn about a potentially troubling character, which will require you to screen the men in your life and avoid those that fail the test. This is really something that should be taught in schools.
Rapists will prey on people they can overcome, who won't put up much of a fight should it come to it. A predatory rapist wants something from women - sex - and he intends to get it. Yet they don't go straight to rape. They attempt to flirt, cajole and pressure into bed (just hit up some of the near-rape cases posted on this site). If the women reacts aggressively, that's usually when he attacks. Acting like rapes will "just happen" if a woman ends up in a bad place ignores all the recurring evidence we have about the crimes. They seldom 'just happen'. There can be weeks, or even months, of build up to a rape. It's a very personal crime.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
When you imply that by doing certain things the victim is responsible for the crime. It's fine to say certain actions are more risky than others. But that by no means makes it their fault.
Are extreme sports players responsible for their injuries? Is it a soldiers fault he got his leg blown off? Even if there is a raised risk, it doesn't make it their fault
Are extreme sports players responsible for their injuries? Is it a soldiers fault he got his leg blown off? Even if there is a raised risk, it doesn't make it their fault
In the case of rape, how can you get away from saying certain actions are more risky than others, without implying that the victim is at fault for the crime?
I mean it's easy enough to do with most other crimes - police advise people on how to avoid being the victim of theft, burglary, attack etc. all the time. But it seems that when it comes to rape, even if the advice comes in exactly the same format, an accusation of "implying that it's the victim's fault" always comes up.
Suppose you thought you knew of a precaution that people can take to make themselves less likely to get raped, and that the public would benefit from the information - how would you go about expressing it?
Original post by tazarooni89
In the case of rape, how can you get away from saying certain actions are more risky than others, without implying that the victim is at fault for the crime?
I mean it's easy enough to do with most other crimes - police advise people on how to avoid being the victim of theft, burglary, attack etc. all the time. But it seems that when it comes to rape, even if the advice comes in exactly the same format, an accusation of "implying that it's the victim's fault" always comes up.
Suppose you thought you knew of a precaution that people can take to make themselves less likely to get raped, and that the public would benefit from the information - how would you go about expressing it?
I mean it's easy enough to do with most other crimes - police advise people on how to avoid being the victim of theft, burglary, attack etc. all the time. But it seems that when it comes to rape, even if the advice comes in exactly the same format, an accusation of "implying that it's the victim's fault" always comes up.
Suppose you thought you knew of a precaution that people can take to make themselves less likely to get raped, and that the public would benefit from the information - how would you go about expressing it?
Just say it as "X action is more likely to result n being the victim of a violent crime such as rape"
The problem is that people think things like what a woman wears is anything to do with it when it isn't
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
Just say it as "X action is more likely to result n being the victim of a violent crime such as rape"
The problem is that people think things like what a woman wears is anything to do with it when it isn't
The problem is that people think things like what a woman wears is anything to do with it when it isn't
I don't really see what this has to do with it. To me it seems like a completely separate problem altogether. Rather than being an issue of whether the person thinks victims are to blame for getting raped, it's an issue of whether the "X action" really is more likely to result in getting raped.
Suppose someone says "Wearing revealing clothes is more likely to result in being the victim of a violent crime such as rape". It's the same as the sentence you wrote above, so there's no implication of the victim is at fault. Surely the issue with this is that the statement isn't true, as opposed to the statement being a "victim blaming" one?
Quick Reply
Latest
Trending
Last reply 4 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 4 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 4 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 4 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 4 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 4 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
