Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils?
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Original post by Dalek1099
Yes the idea of gender is completely made up, you can't define gender without making sexist stereotypes to basis genders on.The concept of gender causes a lot of sexism today.I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex its due to the discrimination in gender roles, these people should be free to be whoever they are regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.If you are a certain way and you change sex because of it you are discriminating against the sex you change from and saying that if you are that sex you can't be that.
Well explain the difference in animals.
Have you talked to tg people about this and had their input?
Original post by Dalek1099
I don't agree with transsexuals changing sex
Why?
No
A few transpeople so alter everything? **** no
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A few transpeople so alter everything? **** no
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Original post by paul514
So you would support unisex or gender-neutral facilities then?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by AlteredBoy
Why?
I think his point is that in an ideal society there would be no sex-based stereotypes upon which to base a definition of gender as distinct from biological sex. A person with XY chromosomes would be able to be as traditionally 'feminine' or 'womanly' as he/she liked without needing to change his/her physical appearance to more resemble what those with XX chromosomes tend to look like. And vice versa.
I'm not sure quite this would mean with regard to gender dysphoria. I would be inclined to think that the problem would not exist in a society without sex-based prejudice and discrimination, in which gender no longer has substantial meaning.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Implication
So you would support unisex or gender-neutral facilities then?
So long as they didn't require me to strip off in front of guys.
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Original post by Katty3
Why do you think you are okay with stripping off in front of females but not 'guys'? Is their gender really relevant? Is it their assumed sexuality that matters? How would you feel in front of exclusively homosexual or asexual men? How would you feel in front of mtf or ftm transgender?
Original post by AlteredBoy
That's completely wrong. Gender dysphoria may well be a mental condition diagnosable through the DSM, but in no way does that make it 'made up'. Whenever I hear someone say something like that it makes me laugh. Trans people are at a higher risk of self harm or suicide than any other social group. That's not made up. The NHS has provided us with SEVEN gender identity clinics, all of which are under strain from a lack of resources whilst the patient population rises to what is thought to be between 500,000-650,000 people seeking or having competed a gender reassignment in the UK as of 2015. That fails to account for anybody that falls outside of the gender binary.
Do us a favour and google things before you say them. Trans people have been around for centuries. People profit from trans people. There are surgeries specially developed for trans people. Do you really think that would happen if it was all just a made up chapter of our lives?
Do us a favour and google things before you say them. Trans people have been around for centuries. People profit from trans people. There are surgeries specially developed for trans people. Do you really think that would happen if it was all just a made up chapter of our lives?
But then the problem rises... are you now classifying them as mentally ill? Which actually in of itself has a very strong case.
Even the argument that "gender is socially constructed" then suggests men who want to be woman are highly likely to have some kind of mental disorder or condition. There's also the issue of an extremely high number of post-op individuals returning to their original sex. Then the whole "male/female brain" idea which counters the whole "gender is socially constructed idea", also has a hint that it is another form of mental condition (rather than disorder).
I seriously doubt it is 'made up' but at the same time we have no idea on how to treat such people. Now in an adult setting I don't think there is really an issue, but at school age, where the brain is still developing I don't really think it should be an automatic issue after school should raise just in case they have a transgendered pupil in the future. They should however take it on a case by case basis and have as little influence (positive or negative) on that individuals decision (whether or not it is a concious decision) to be transgendered.
Original post by DanB1991
But then the problem rises... are you now classifying them as mentally ill? Which actually in of itself has a very strong case.
Even the argument that "gender is socially constructed" then suggests men who want to be woman are highly likely to have some kind of mental disorder or condition. There's also the issue of an extremely high number of post-op individuals returning to their original sex. Then the whole "male/female brain" idea which counters the whole "gender is socially constructed idea", also has a hint that it is another form of mental condition (rather than disorder).
I seriously doubt it is 'made up' but at the same time we have no idea on how to treat such people. Now in an adult setting I don't think there is really an issue, but at school age, where the brain is still developing I don't really think it should be an automatic issue after school should raise just in case they have a transgendered pupil in the future. They should however take it on a case by case basis and have as little influence (positive or negative) on that individuals decision (whether or not it is a concious decision) to be transgendered.
Even the argument that "gender is socially constructed" then suggests men who want to be woman are highly likely to have some kind of mental disorder or condition. There's also the issue of an extremely high number of post-op individuals returning to their original sex. Then the whole "male/female brain" idea which counters the whole "gender is socially constructed idea", also has a hint that it is another form of mental condition (rather than disorder).
I seriously doubt it is 'made up' but at the same time we have no idea on how to treat such people. Now in an adult setting I don't think there is really an issue, but at school age, where the brain is still developing I don't really think it should be an automatic issue after school should raise just in case they have a transgendered pupil in the future. They should however take it on a case by case basis and have as little influence (positive or negative) on that individuals decision (whether or not it is a concious decision) to be transgendered.
I'm not one to talk for the trans community as a whole, but I do feel like because gender dysphoria is a mental illness, pre-op people are mentally ill as a result. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that post-op trans people decide to detransition? I find it odd that so many would do it after surgery, since hormones are given before surgery to ensure that money isn't wasted. I cant remember who it was, but either Vilain or Gulliamon found that exposure to abnormal chemicals in the womb was a probable cause of dysphoria developing, with such individuals having their brains grow in the structure that they then identify as later in life. Schools have no input on an individuals gender identity so I don't really know what your last point is about, unless you're inferring that a gender neutral restroom could cause students to identify as a different gender? Outside school settings its still an issue, with one study finding that 70% of trans people had been harassed whilst using a gendered toilet.
Original post by DonkeyShlong
I don't see how much gender neutral you can get with school uniforms, most now are trousers/skirt and a jumper/blazer (aren't they?) I see a lot of girls wearing trousers, so why should any one male by birth not be allowed to wear a skirt.
My question is how would you address such issues at single gender schools?
My question is how would you address such issues at single gender schools?
That's an interesting point you raise re single sex schools. Would these students be asked to leave?
Original post by Wewuz Hebrews
If you are a guy, could you request to be allowed to attend an all girls school on the grounds of sexual discrimination?
They don't have urinals in 'all girl' schools!
Original post by DougallnDougall
They don't have urinals in 'all girl' schools!
most men don't have a urinal in their house and yet still manage to piss
Personally the issue doesn't seem to be the school's needing to change their facilities to accommodate trans people, it is merely the schools (staff and pupils included) being educated on the matter. I am trans myself and under UK law, trans people are already protected in pretty much all of these aspects. The point it becomes an issue if when you encounter a school that is unfamiliar with the legalities surrounding these issues.
I know of some trans guys who have gone to schools where the girls have to wear skirts as part of the uniform and they have been told off for wearing trousers (the male uniform) when by law the school has to let them present by their identified gender.
Altering how schools structure there facilities is not the issue. The issue is education and training.
EDIT: Just in terms of the fact people might abuse this. I think a general part of what a school should do with any trans student is have a meeting with them so the school can see how they can best support this student (my school did it with me). I think a meeting such as this could be used as a means to also make sure it isn't just a student going "Hey, I'm trans" just to abuse the facilities of the opposite gender.
Personally at the time I had this meeting with my school, I wasn't yet ready to socially transition so I wasn't even wishing to use the female facilities. They had just heard rumours about me going through the student body and felt it was something they'd best confront sooner rather than later in case I required support.
I know of some trans guys who have gone to schools where the girls have to wear skirts as part of the uniform and they have been told off for wearing trousers (the male uniform) when by law the school has to let them present by their identified gender.
Altering how schools structure there facilities is not the issue. The issue is education and training.
EDIT: Just in terms of the fact people might abuse this. I think a general part of what a school should do with any trans student is have a meeting with them so the school can see how they can best support this student (my school did it with me). I think a meeting such as this could be used as a means to also make sure it isn't just a student going "Hey, I'm trans" just to abuse the facilities of the opposite gender.
Personally at the time I had this meeting with my school, I wasn't yet ready to socially transition so I wasn't even wishing to use the female facilities. They had just heard rumours about me going through the student body and felt it was something they'd best confront sooner rather than later in case I required support.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Implication
I think his point is that in an ideal society there would be no sex-based stereotypes upon which to base a definition of gender as distinct from biological sex. A person with XY chromosomes would be able to be as traditionally 'feminine' or 'womanly' as he/she liked without needing to change his/her physical appearance to more resemble what those with XX chromosomes tend to look like. And vice versa.
I'm not sure quite this would mean with regard to gender dysphoria. I would be inclined to think that the problem would not exist in a society without sex-based prejudice and discrimination, in which gender no longer has substantial meaning.
I'm not sure quite this would mean with regard to gender dysphoria. I would be inclined to think that the problem would not exist in a society without sex-based prejudice and discrimination, in which gender no longer has substantial meaning.
I personally disagree with this. I am a trans woman (born male but identify as female). As I kid I fit in with the lads quite well and by all outward appearance, how I dressed and acted I was a stereotypical lad and in all honesty, how I dress and act and what I like has not changed much since then. I never felt I identified with the male gender though. I can't pinpoint as to why I don't but I don't. Since starting transitioning, especially starting on hormones I have become a happier and more productive member of society and as I have said. For the most part I haven't really changed.
My dysphoria was never associated to me having interests that didn't stereotypically correspond to my birth sex. My dysphoria was merely due to me not identifying as male, why I don't identify as male I don't know. But being viewed as male, having a body that was physically male caused me a lot of distress, I was very depressed and sometimes my dysphoria surfaced as quite strong anger. I really would not go back and even if gender stereotypes are erased from society, I still doubt I would have ever been happy being male.
Original post by Implication
but that's not the generally recognised definition of gender as distinct from sex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
It is illogical too refute or resign your gender. Plain and simple.
Yes, lets change things for a tiny percentage of the population and pay millions of pounds for restrooms that will never be used.
Do you have a dick? go to the toilet which is designed to accommodate you (male toilets) do you have a vag? go to the female toilet. WHY IS THIS SO HARD.
I swear this is special snow flake culture, should we have a toilet for gay people too? what about separating lesbians and gays? should lesbians go to male toilets and gays go to female toilets? what about changing rooms? what if someone is "genderfluid" and switches back and forth? hmmm black and white people are different, why don't we separate them up, i mean it's only logical? what about religions? where do we draw the line when the first proposal is drawing the line that is so blurry.
Do you have a dick? go to the toilet which is designed to accommodate you (male toilets) do you have a vag? go to the female toilet. WHY IS THIS SO HARD.
I swear this is special snow flake culture, should we have a toilet for gay people too? what about separating lesbians and gays? should lesbians go to male toilets and gays go to female toilets? what about changing rooms? what if someone is "genderfluid" and switches back and forth? hmmm black and white people are different, why don't we separate them up, i mean it's only logical? what about religions? where do we draw the line when the first proposal is drawing the line that is so blurry.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TheNote
Yes, lets change things for a tiny percentage of the population and pay millions of pounds for restrooms that will never be used.
Do you have a dick? go to the toilet which is designed to accommodate you (male toilets) do you have a vag? go to the female toilet. WHY IS THIS SO HARD.
I swear this is special snow flake culture, should we have a toilet for gay people too? what about separating lesbians and gays? should lesbians go to male toilets and gays go to female toilets? what about changing rooms? what if someone is "genderfluid" and switches back and forth? hmmm black and white people are different, why don't we separate them up, i mean it's only logical? what about religions? where do we draw the line when the first proposal is drawing the line that is so blurry.
Do you have a dick? go to the toilet which is designed to accommodate you (male toilets) do you have a vag? go to the female toilet. WHY IS THIS SO HARD.
I swear this is special snow flake culture, should we have a toilet for gay people too? what about separating lesbians and gays? should lesbians go to male toilets and gays go to female toilets? what about changing rooms? what if someone is "genderfluid" and switches back and forth? hmmm black and white people are different, why don't we separate them up, i mean it's only logical? what about religions? where do we draw the line when the first proposal is drawing the line that is so blurry.
Oh my god stop. All we're asking is to feel safe and comfortable going to the toilet or getting changed why is this so difficult to comprehend?
Original post by AlteredBoy
Oh my god stop. All we're asking is to feel safe and comfortable going to the toilet or getting changed why is this so difficult to comprehend?
I want all girls and boys to feel safe without having someone of the opposite sex walk into their toilets, the reality is that you represent a tiny minority, so tiny that even in the largest schools there will only be between 15 and 20 trans students, so now you want another room dedicated to 1% of the population? why should we waste money on that? and if you don't want another room then whats the difference with what you have now? just go to the room designed for your current waste disposing organs.
Instead you should be addressing the the problem at it's root, the bigoted views passed down by parents, this would help also address the homophobia problems and other problems involving minorities and mental disabilities.
and in response to your question of "why shouldn't transsexuals change sex" then maybe you should check out the suicide rates for before and after transitions, people with gender dysphoria should be treated as mental patients and not have their disability encouraged. We don't for example encourage anorexia patients to get surgery to make them look skinny so they are happy, so why should we do the same for gender dysphoria, encouraging a delusion, which is exactly what it is, is not healthy for the person, and I am sorry that feminists and the left have ideologically put the lives of trans people at risk.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TheNote
Did i hurt your feelings? 
I want all women and boys to feel safe without having someone of the opposite sex walk into their toilets, the reality is that you represent a tiny minority, so tiny that even in the largest schools there will only be between 15 and 20 trans students, so now you want another room dedicated to 1% of the population? why should we waste money on that? and if you don't want another room then whats the difference with what you have now? just go to the room designed for your current waste disposing organs.
Instead you should be addressing the the problem at it's root, the bigoted views passed down by parents, this would help also address the homophobia problems and other problems sexual minorities face.
I want all women and boys to feel safe without having someone of the opposite sex walk into their toilets, the reality is that you represent a tiny minority, so tiny that even in the largest schools there will only be between 15 and 20 trans students, so now you want another room dedicated to 1% of the population? why should we waste money on that? and if you don't want another room then whats the difference with what you have now? just go to the room designed for your current waste disposing organs.
Instead you should be addressing the the problem at it's root, the bigoted views passed down by parents, this would help also address the homophobia problems and other problems sexual minorities face.
I agree that education is one way this problem could be solved, yes. As I've said previously, I wouldn't expect all schools to do it straight away, just when they're having a structural refurbishment or when new ones are being built. I do want another room, this is my argument. The difference with what I have now is the fact that I wouldn't have to wait until I get home to have a pee and not worry about what might happen when I walk out. All the sixth form and staff know that I identify as male, so do you not think they'd feel uncomfortable when a man walks into a women's bathroom?
Original post by AlteredBoy
I agree that education is one way this problem could be solved, yes. As I've said previously, I wouldn't expect all schools to do it straight away, just when they're having a structural refurbishment or when new ones are being built. I do want another room, this is my argument. The difference with what I have now is the fact that I wouldn't have to wait until I get home to have a pee and not worry about what might happen when I walk out. All the sixth form and staff know that I identify as male, so do you not think they'd feel uncomfortable when a man walks into a women's bathroom?
I still don't see the problem with using the toilets of your current genitalia, an extra room will take up space and be barely used, you could make and argument to say that disabled toilets should be allowed to be used by trans people as well, since then you are widening the audience and normally disabled toilets are just 1 stall and aren't exactly always in use.
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