should holocaust denial be a crime ???
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No, I don't think so.
We know that the holocaust happened for sure though. the evidence is there.
We know that the holocaust happened for sure though. the evidence is there.
Original post by Nicholas Nelson
No, I don't think so.
We know that the holocaust happened for sure though. the evidence is there.
We know that the holocaust happened for sure though. the evidence is there.
Like what evidence for example?
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"Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're really in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech."
This quote is a bit ironic given the subject matter
This quote is a bit ironic given the subject matter
Original post by Reptilian
Hmm I don't know maybe survivors from concentration camps that are still alive today,or the discovery of the mass graves,Concentration camps,Hitler's documented (often filmed) speeches?,Nazi records, videos,or the millions of people that went missing?
Original post by itsRochana
Hmm I don't know maybe survivors from concentration camps that are still alive today,or the discovery of the mass graves,Concentration camps,Hitler's documented (often filmed) speeches?,Nazi records, videos,or the millions of people that went missing?
Your evidence seems to be confused. Why would there be mass graves if the story about gassings and cremations is true? No one disputes the fact that there were mass graves found but can you use them to support the kind of numbers and demographic that the Holocaust story holds to be true. If you want to err to the other alleged killing device, can you support this with evidence of such a device?
Are you aware of what percentage of the camp survivors give verbal evidence to support the gassing theory? Can you give us one credible camp inmate witness to support the gassing theory. Many have been discredited including Simon Wiesenthal who is regarded by professionals as a liar. (do a Google search).
How is concentration camps proof of gassing? By that logic the British must have gassed people as yet had concentration camps.
Can you point us to a Hitler speech where he talks about genocide of various people? All serious historians know there is no such speech or in fact order.
Can you point us to the actual Nazi records that show the killing of millions of civilians. It's not enough just to say that there are some record out there, you need to show the records. As far as I know there are no such records and the existence of such records is a popular myth that major historians disagree with.
Can you point us to these alleged videos that show Nazi genocide.
Do you have the specific demographic information to support the idea that millions of civilians went missing taking into account net migration?
Im not suggesting that the Nazi regime was a bed roses. I am suggesting that the common man and the zeitgeist has not sorted the facts from the fiction.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by itsRochana
Hmm I don't know maybe survivors from concentration camps that are still alive today,or the discovery of the mass graves,Concentration camps,Hitler's documented (often filmed) speeches?,Nazi records, videos,or the millions of people that went missing?
Many were proven to have lied and/or fabricated details. There is no doubt that many died during the war of typhoid and other such diseases however, those who were gassed were allegedly cremated, why would ashes need mass graves? Concentration camps could effectively have been prisons. No one is doubting that people were imprisoned, it is the 6 million Jews were gassed part which is more interesting. Hitler's speeches didn't mention anything about the gassing of Jews. Nazi records didn't either mention it. There are no videos of gas chambers. The gas chambers were inspected and it seems that they could not have been used to carry out human extermination due to their build. The number of people that went missing has constantly been altered and there are huge inaccuracies there also.
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I am a person who lost relatives in WW2 who died in Auschwitz. I am uncertain as to whether or not denial should be a criminal offence, or if so whether that should just be the case in the countries where the deaths took place. Genocide including the holocaust, the Khmer Rouge killings, the Armenian genocide, and many others should not be forgotten, though I wonder if laws on inciting racial or religious hatred could be used.
Original post by barnetlad
I am a person who lost relatives in WW2 who died in Auschwitz. I am uncertain as to whether or not denial should be a criminal offence, or if so whether that should just be the case in the countries where the deaths took place. Genocide including the holocaust, the Khmer Rouge killings, the Armenian genocide, and many others should not be forgotten, though I wonder if laws on inciting racial or religious hatred could be used.
Again another confused post. Yes there will be a lot of people who lost relatives in German camps. But this is not the same thing as to say that 11 million were killed. The fact that people's were lost does not rule out deaths by Allied bombing of Auschwitz-Birkenau (in order to disable petroleum production at the IG Farben Standard Oil plant nearby where prisoners were used as staff - killing infrastructure workers was Allied policy) and a significant proportion of the camp population of around 280,000 in German and Polish Nazi camps being killed by Typhus towards the end of the war.
(edited 9 years ago)
No but the evidence is overwhelmingly against them.
The Israeli memorial keeps a central registry of Holocaust victims in Jerusalem. The Pages of Testimony at the Hall of Names documents more than 3,000,000 Holocaust victims and is a good resource. A database has been created and is expected to be online in the near future to search their records.
The following link comes directly from the Nuremburg trial. It describes where the 6 million figure comes from.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-02/tgmwc-02-20-05.shtml
It is clear that several million Jewish people were murdered in the Holocaust.
It shouldn't be illegal to question the evidence but it should be treated like creationism.
The Israeli memorial keeps a central registry of Holocaust victims in Jerusalem. The Pages of Testimony at the Hall of Names documents more than 3,000,000 Holocaust victims and is a good resource. A database has been created and is expected to be online in the near future to search their records.
The following link comes directly from the Nuremburg trial. It describes where the 6 million figure comes from.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-02/tgmwc-02-20-05.shtml
It is clear that several million Jewish people were murdered in the Holocaust.
It shouldn't be illegal to question the evidence but it should be treated like creationism.
Already is illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
Original post by Viceroy
Not in the UK.
If not believing evidence is a crime, there goes religion.
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Original post by BefuddledPenguin
No but the evidence is overwhelmingly against them.
The Israeli memorial keeps a central registry of Holocaust victims in Jerusalem. The Pages of Testimony at the Hall of Names documents more than 3,000,000 Holocaust victims and is a good resource. A database has been created and is expected to be online in the near future to search their records.
The following link comes directly from the Nuremburg trial. It describes where the 6 million figure comes from.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-02/tgmwc-02-20-05.shtml
It is clear that several million Jewish people were murdered in the Holocaust.
It shouldn't be illegal to question the evidence but it should be treated like creationism.
The Israeli memorial keeps a central registry of Holocaust victims in Jerusalem. The Pages of Testimony at the Hall of Names documents more than 3,000,000 Holocaust victims and is a good resource. A database has been created and is expected to be online in the near future to search their records.
The following link comes directly from the Nuremburg trial. It describes where the 6 million figure comes from.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-02/tgmwc-02-20-05.shtml
It is clear that several million Jewish people were murdered in the Holocaust.
It shouldn't be illegal to question the evidence but it should be treated like creationism.
Your evidence link relies on statements made at Nuremberg.
Nuremberg Statement from captured German officials are not good evidence. It is now accepts by leading historians that those prisoners were tortured at the Nuremberg trials to "confess". This is even admitted by the United States military.
Most of this so called Holocaust evidence is one sided and omits what it is not convenient to show. A whole body of one sided evidence that purposefully seeks to obscure the whole truth cannot be trusted. It is a form of trickery, information that comes from a disinformation campaign.
I have pasted an alternative link to provide a more balanced view:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_show_trials
I believe that German soldiers did shoot quite a number of Jewish people in invaded territories i.e. Russia and Poland (but not millions).
This was due to the negative propaganda about Jews that came from the Third Reich as opposed to official Third Reich policy. This negative propaganda came about from an agreement between the Third Reich and the House of Rothschild as party of the scheme for the creation of the state of Israel. (See book: The Transfer Agreement, also known as the Haavara Agreement).
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
The idea of making free enquiry a crime ("Holocaust denial") is a disinflation strategy and these days this is often carried out by unwitting people who have been conditioned into this mode of thought. Most people, even highly intelligent people are often not intelligent enough to question things that are widely believed or oppose fashionable consensus where such opposition brings about scorn.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by james22
Not in the UK.
Way to read.
I think the Holocaust should still be allowed to be up for debate. I dislike how the term anti-semite is thrown at anyone who might wish to discuss or question the Holocaust. It is as if the word anti-semite is used to silence people. If one were to deny the Holocaust they would not be called homophobic, how comes? Many gay people were killed during the Holocaust. If one were to deny the Holocaust, they would not get called antiziganist despite the fact that many gypsies were killed in it.
The Holocaust should be debated as many details are questionable. Figures for the amount who died vary widely between sources. It is a false dichotomy to assume that there are only two positions within this dicussion, namely denial or acceptance of the Holocaust.
I also don't like how the Holocaust is afforded special exemptions that other genocides don't have. The Holodomor happened around the same time as the Holocaust and is estimated to have killed similar amounts of people, yet the Holodomor can seem to be questioned or denied without one being labelled a castigating term. In fact, the UK government doesn't even officially recognise the Holodomor.
So no, I don't think Holocaust denial should be criminalised. Debate is important and all sides have the right to voice their opinion regardless of how wrong it might be.
The Holocaust should be debated as many details are questionable. Figures for the amount who died vary widely between sources. It is a false dichotomy to assume that there are only two positions within this dicussion, namely denial or acceptance of the Holocaust.
I also don't like how the Holocaust is afforded special exemptions that other genocides don't have. The Holodomor happened around the same time as the Holocaust and is estimated to have killed similar amounts of people, yet the Holodomor can seem to be questioned or denied without one being labelled a castigating term. In fact, the UK government doesn't even officially recognise the Holodomor.
So no, I don't think Holocaust denial should be criminalised. Debate is important and all sides have the right to voice their opinion regardless of how wrong it might be.
(edited 9 years ago)
In France, a law against Holocaust denial was passed in 1990.
Then, a law was voted against the negation of slavery (the law only blames European slavery) in 2001 by the socialists - mostly for electoral reasons. In 2005, a lecturer was sued for having said that "Slavery trade was not a genocide".
Another law was passed by Sarkozy in 2012 against the negation of the Armenian genocide - mostly for electoral reasons.
In 2005, the conservative majority even tried to pass a law "on the positive role of the colonisation", but had to back off.
I'm worried of what will come next...
I hope the UK will never follow that way.
Then, a law was voted against the negation of slavery (the law only blames European slavery) in 2001 by the socialists - mostly for electoral reasons. In 2005, a lecturer was sued for having said that "Slavery trade was not a genocide".
Another law was passed by Sarkozy in 2012 against the negation of the Armenian genocide - mostly for electoral reasons.
In 2005, the conservative majority even tried to pass a law "on the positive role of the colonisation", but had to back off.
I'm worried of what will come next...
I hope the UK will never follow that way.
Although I am a very firm believer that 6 million Jews were gassed by the Nazis during WW2, I've always been a little confused as to why those who challenge this are automatically considered antisemitic. There is no doubt that many antisemites are holocaust deniers, but I'm not sure why believing that a smaller number died is inherently antisemitic. It seems no more antisemitic to me than the left-wing media's hatred of the great Jewish conspiracy group they call the Zionists.
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